YaBoyMyth
Mame
Was reading through the old 2018 JBP contest and looks like every person took cuttings from their seedlings. Do cuttings grow faster? Is there a reason besides just having more material to work with
Cuttings
- Thread starter YaBoyMyth
- Start date
Divide_by_zero
Yamadori
Cuttings from JBP? Does that work? I've always understood pines do not throw from cuttings or air layers. I'm confused by this??
Njyamadori
Chumono
Some people make something called “cutting seedlings “ . I’m which I believe they make a little seedling then they use it to make a cutting.
YaBoyMyth
Mame
So is there an advantage to that or is it just for more material
Ohmy222
Shohin
It helps to develop seedlings to train for Shohin bonsai. It will give you better roots in most cases and give you branches low to train. If you are growing out into a larger tree then it is less necessary. In general you cannot easily get cuttings from a JBP but it is very easy right after they germinate. Once the seed germinates, you wait until it gets slightly stiff and the stem is purple-ish and you just cut off right above the roots and replant. Just keep moist and don't leave out in the sun. I had close to 100% success the few I have tried. I have done the same with with red pines and beech.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
If you take a standard JBP seedling, it will throw a single long tap root with only minor lateral roots. If you cut the seedling at the right time and replant, it will throw all radial roots - and no tap root. Surprisingly, although it slows down year one development, it does not greatly impact survivability. Because the seedling is slightly weakened in the process, it does not throw leggy growth with long internodes. Instead you get a seedling with radial roots and shorter growth with low buds; everything you want when developing JBP from seed.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Don't believe everything you hear, especially about bonsai.
Pines layer just fine. Pines are generally harder to strike as cuttings but it can be done, even with more mature shoots but strike rates are generally low and variable.
Younger material roots easier and you can't get much younger than seedlings just a few weeks old so they strike with close to 100% rate.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/growing-pines-from-cuttings.42254/
Also see posts on https://shibuibonsai.com.au/ like this one - https://shibuibonsai.com.au/?p=1262
Not everyone made seedling cuttings. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/shibui-pine-contest-entry.36341/
Given the right treatment cuttings will produce a mass of roots from the cut end which in turn develops into a great radial root system as outlined by @Bonsai Nut and @Ohmy222 above.
There are many who are pedantic about when and where to cut seedlings for this operation but my trials show the stems can be cut anywhere and pretty much any time from germination through to when they start producing mature needles. The key is really that the shoots are immature. I still get the same result with long tops cut and used as cuttings and end up with 2 plants instead of just one.
I have found that seedling cuttings do not always give the magic result of masses of lateral roots. Some have responded with just a few roots or roots all on one side. I can get just as good a result simply by trimming the tap roots at pricking out. Again the concept that it does not matter where on the stem you cut, immature pines can grow new roots if they are cut and given suitable conditions to recover so cutting just below the first lateral shoot will usually give a similar mass of lateral roots as a seedling cutting but won't need the same aftercare and conditions as the cuttings.
MaciekA
Shohin
Adding to what Shibui said, pine cuttings also work. For example, Fabio Antakly (bonsai artist in the Portland area) recently rooted shore pine cuttings (check out the Bonsai Society of Portland FB page for his post about it). I think strong horticultural skills and a mild climate goes a long way.
GGB
Masterpiece
YaBoyMyth
Mame
So the main idea is that it helps get a better nebari in the long run? This is my first time growing so still all new stuff to learn. If one didn’t use cuttings then you would just have to trim the tap root to promote radial roots? Not sure I’m comfortable enough yet to try a cutting
meushi
Mame
Japanese Black Pine candle cuttings are also a propagation strategy that is documented in Japan... two different versions are shown in Kyosuke Gun's book on black pines. And they are also discussed in an older Japanese bonsai book on my shelf.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Very interesting to hear because so far I have had no success at all with new candles. All of my success so far has been with 1 year old shoots. If anyone can pass on some of the timing and techniques for candle cuttings I would love to see. Always interested to see and hear how others are pushing the boundaries like this so keep passing on ideas and tips.
I believe that is the main reason for making cuttings. As mentioned I get just as good results simply by trimming the main root of a seedling when transplanting so making an actual cutting is not really essential IMHO and may be more palatable for first time root trimmers. I had a post on the Shibui Bonsai blog but the photos all disappeared when we moved servers so here are a couple of examples of root trimming at seedling transplant.
This one has been cut just below the first lateral root. More laterals will grow from around that cut giving the all round future nebari.
This seedling already had a cluster of small laterals so I have chopped the main root just below that group of side roots. Again, because it is immature it is almost certain that more lateral roots will develop after the main root is cut.
Cutting seedling roots like this gives good lateral root development but without the initial setback of making a cutting.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
The second reason is for smaller sized bonsai: Your first node / sidebranche is much lower to the ground,
Aryto
Seed
I think there is a misunderstanding here: I believe they did not take cuttings from a seedling but rather did a procedure called "seedling-cutting". Its basically cutting the roots off a very young pine seedling, and replanting it. The result is no tap root and only lateral roots.
Also, this does not result in "more" material since you discard the taproot and keep only the seedling, which now ressembles a cutting (i.e. no roots).
I hope this makes sense
Also, this does not result in "more" material since you discard the taproot and keep only the seedling, which now ressembles a cutting (i.e. no roots).
I hope this makes sense
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Correct. This is the traditional seedling cutting technique which most of the growers used but i don't think there is any misunderstanding. I have modified the technique as outlined above and can get a cutting with all the same attributes - short stem and good lateral roots - as well as the original seedling which will have a cluster of shoots closer to the base than untrimmed seedlings. 2 pines from a single seed. Some years I have continued to take cuttings of both the resulting plants as they grow and ended up with up to 8 small pines from the same seedling by the end of the year.
There are a whole host of slightly different ways to treat pine seedlings that all give slightly different results.
meushi
Mame
I'll dig a bit and make a rough translation of those parts of the books.
Aryto
Seed
@Shibui, I wasn't reacting to your post but the first one. Since he was talking about taking "cuttings from their seedlings" and "having more material" as a result, I just thought there was a basic misunderstanding on the procedure.
I wouldn't dare question your method! Sorry for any confusion.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
My apologies for jumping in - only thinking a few posts at a time. I see the original reference now so thanks for the clarification.
BTW I have no problem with anyone questioning any techniques or opinions I offer so always feel free to offer contradictory opinions where appropriate.
While we are clarifying I should also point out that even though I offered my thread as an example of NOT making seedling cuttings I did, in fact, make cuttings from some of the seedlings I entered. It may even be from that thread that the Op has gained the idea of 'having more material' but the discussion seems to have been productive anyway.
I may be able to tell if some of the smaller ones I have retained were either the cuttings or the seedlings that had cuttings taken off. Pretty sure that the larger trees remaining in my thread just had the roots pruned hard. It will be interesting to compare nebari after the end of 5 years with those seedling cuttings from other entries.
