Donald Trump.

[M. Frary]

...I will pay my taxes

I want to get away from that if at all possible.
I believe if you wear a suit to work you should pay more.
It's guys like me that allow them to wear suits to work.
They make their money from my sweat. My sweat should be worth something.
If only it were. I would be rich. I'm sweating just typing this.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I want to get away from that if at all possible.
I believe if you wear a suit to work you should pay more.
It's guys like me that allow them to wear suits to work.
They make their money from my sweat. My sweat should be worth something.
If only it were. I would be rich. I'm sweating just typing this.

I recall growing up...my grandpa saying...YOU NEVER OWN ANYTHING! You always have to pay taxes to the government. House is paid off...and I really feel what he was saying. Before the taxes came out of our payment. Now...it's a HUGE chunk written from our checking account. But...I'm a cup is full running over sort. And...try and see the blessings in having a house that can be taxed. The savings of not making that monthly house payment sort of thing. But...I feel him at tax time and I have to pay property taxes.

I hear you...Blue collar is a main staple of why our country runs as it does today.

 

[Maloghurst]

Where is that 28%?

Sorry I meant 25%. I'm in the under 150000 for duel income family. Nothing changes.
Look I'm a fan of small business tax breaks.
But multi billion dollar corporations, no.
If you agree with this plan that's fine. That's a whole other argument that is pointless to have. But you seem to disagree with it.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Sorry I meant 25%. I'm in the under 150000 for duel income family. Nothing changes.
Look I'm a fan of small business tax breaks.
But multi billion dollar corporations, no.
If you agree with this plan that's fine. That's a whole other argument that is pointless to have. But you seem to disagree with it.

I just think...the reason for it...is to allow businesses to bring their businesses BACK to America. No? That's was my take. From listening to his talk on bringing business back. I'm no business savvy person by any means...don't claim to be. It's why we have an accountant.

 

[Maloghurst]

We've been doing supplyside economics since 1981.
Some facts.
1950- 90% of economic wage growth went to the worker. 10% went to executives.
1980- Ceos made on avg 30x more then the worker.
Trickle down begins.
2015 CEOs now make on avg 220x more then the worker.
2015 90% of economic wage growth goes to executives. 10% to workers.
I just don't see how people can support this?
And they are not paying a fair share of taxes on top of this.

 

[Cadillactaste]

We've been doing supplyside economics since 1981.
Some facts.
1950- 90% of economic wage growth went to the worker. 10% went to executives.
1980- Ceos made on avg 30x more then the worker.
Trickle down begins.
2015 CEOs now make on avg 220x more then the worker.
2015 90% of economic wage growth goes to executives. 10% to workers.
I just don't see how people can support this?
And they are not paying a fair share of taxes on top of this.

So it's been a steadily increasing problem with taxes...Again...I'm out of my element here. That is why I have the accountant for this end of our business. But...I'm not saying it's right. But...I assumed it was the tax break to bring business back he spoke of. Again...not my forte in any realm...and I don't credit myself to say otherwise.

 

[Maloghurst]

So it's been a steadily increasing problem with taxes...Again...I'm out of my element here. That is why I have the accountant for this end of our business. But...I'm not saying it's right. But...I assumed it was the tax break to bring business back he spoke of. Again...not my forte in any realm...and I don't credit myself to say otherwise.

This is the problem with division of wealth. History shows us that given the opportunity that the wealthy will not trickle down the wealth. They keep it and give us just enough to get by.
Don't forgot to couple the decrease in wage increases with the fact that housing and college cost have sky rocketed in the last 30 years.
Big business lobbyist are the ones who wanted fair trade not democrats. Even though Clinton gave it to them.
Now we take it away and make them make all their products here in the states. Increasing the manufacturing cost by a lot, creating jobs yes, lower wages and more expensive products yes, to offset the higher manufacturing cost.
My American dream, to be able to provide for a family , buy a home and send my kids to collage on a middle class salary.

 

[10-brink]

 

[M. Frary]

I think Ted Nugent would be an awesome Secretary of Defense and Gene Simmons as senior advisor.
For real.

 

[chansen]

View attachment 123266

I've seen this graph before, and it's telling. The question is, what do we learn? It looks to me like the division of productivity and wage growth happened before Reagan was in office. Maybe the division has less to do with tax policies and more to do with the growth of technology increasing the efficiency of the worker. That doesn't mean tax policies should be what they are, but it may not be the cause of the shift.

Regarding tax policies and history, we live in a very different world now. Globalization and the Internet have changed the way we do business. Western Europe and Asia finally caught up after being bombed into oblivion during WWII, and other parts of the world now contribute to the global economy more than before. So I'm not sure that history can tell us all the answers to what we should do now. We're different in a way that no other society in history has been. I don't know the answer, but there are interesting questions.

 

[eugene brown]

We've been doing supplyside economics since 1981.
Some facts.
1950- 90% of economic wage growth went to the worker. 10% went to executives.
1980- Ceos made on avg 30x more then the worker.
Trickle down begins.
2015 CEOs now make on avg 220x more then the worker.
2015 90% of economic wage growth goes to executives. 10% to workers.
I just don't see how people can support this?
And they are not paying a fair share of taxes on top of this.

Are you suggesting that we've had trickle down economics for the past 8 years?

 

[Paradox]

. But...I feel him at tax time and I have to pay property taxes.

We also have a small business and own a house and pay property taxes. No one likes property taxes.
But,
Without those taxes, our roads would not be paved or plowed or repaired, we would not have police protection in our neighborhood, a fire department, a town garbage dump/transfer station, we would not have schools to educate our children, our natural resources would not be protected and fostered and a myriad of other things I cant think of at the moment.

 

[Maloghurst]

I've seen this graph before, and it's telling. The question is, what do we learn? It looks to me like the division of productivity and wage growth happened before Reagan was in office. Maybe the division has less to do with tax policies and more to do with the growth of technology increasing the efficiency of the worker. That doesn't mean tax policies should be what they are, but it may not be the cause of the shift.

Regarding tax policies and history, we live in a very different world now. Globalization and the Internet have changed the way we do business. Western Europe and Asia finally caught up after being bombed into oblivion during WWII, and other parts of the world now contribute to the global economy more than before. So I'm not sure that history can tell us all the answers to what we should do now. We're different in a way that no other society in history has been. I don't know the answer, but there are interesting questions.

Are you suggesting that we've had trickle down economics for the past 8 years?

This is my answer to both your questions.
Yes we have essentially had supply side economics since the early 80s when Reagan was in office. It has changed very little overall except small fluctuations. It has proven ineffective in building a middle class where we can have the American dream.
And yes the graph is telling and does reflect actually earnings from productivity. The difference is that the money is going to CEOs and executives within the company not trickling down to workers.
If you looked at a graph superimposed on the one above with executive and CEO salaries it would be right in line or higher then the productivity line.
Also again, you could super impose a graph line of housing and college cost on that graph and it would be in line or higher then productivity.
The only one that has systematically stayed the same or dropped is workers salary.

 

[Maloghurst]

And you can see that it has gone down since 1980 when Reagan introduced supplyside economics or trickle down.

 

[Cadillactaste]

We also have a small business and own a house and pay property taxes. No one likes property taxes.
But,
Without those taxes, our roads would not be paved or plowed or repaired, we would not have police protection in our neighborhood, a fire department, a town garbage dump/transfer station, we would not have schools to educate our children, our natural resources would not be protected and fostered and a myriad of other things I cant think of at the moment.

I do get that Sandy...it's just something my grandpa used to say. That you never stop paying your place off. Even when it's paid for. I of all people am a firm supporter of our men and women in blue and first rescue. It's sickened me for a long time where our country has been headed. And they have a huge target on their backs. I also appreciate ODOT and the others who make it so first responders can make it to homes as well come winter. As well as make commuting easier. It's just something he's said many times as I grew up...that you never truly own your home. That upon writing a check for taxes...makes me think of his statement. He was a die hard democrat. I do know that...he would turn over in his grave to learn that we were Independant...leaning toward republican views.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I've seen this graph before, and it's telling. The question is, what do we learn?

What we learned is that when we open up our labor markets to competition from global labor, if you are an unskilled laborer in the US you are about to get burned. If you are a coal miner in Pennsylvania (as the family of my grandparents used to be) you are now competing against coal miners in India. And unless you want the same standard of living as coal miners in India, you had better change your skillset.

The other thing we learned is that you can't have it both ways. You can't have high wages, and $900 big screen TVs at Walmart that 10 years ago were selling for $6000. Everyone complains about the lack of wage growth, but you don't see anyone complaining about the lack of price inflation and historically low mortgage rates. Funny how that works.

We also learned that a lot of the wealth creation - particularly in the last 10 years in the US - are in "virtual" technology products... companies like Google and YouTube and Facebook that don't produce anything tangible, don't employ any "labor", and yet generate hundreds of billions in revenue and create thousands of millionaires. People complain about the lack of wage growth... on Twitter and Facebook. The US economy has moved on. The percentage of our GDP created by "high labor" industries has fallen every year since the 1970's.

On a separate note, my dad always says it is an honor to pay taxes... because it means he has money to pay taxes on. He grew up during the Great Depression and remembers what it was like to not have any money.

 

[chansen]

And you can see that it has gone down since 1980 when Reagan introduced supplyside economics or trickle down.

I guess I just read the graph differently. It looks like the separation happened around 1975. It definitely continued on the same course, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude Reagan's tax policies were the root cause. I also don't buy into the idea that tax policies alone are the sole cause of wage stagnation. I think the problems are far more complicated than that, and I don't think that suddenly taxing wealthy people will somehow ensure the money falls to me. Having said that, I do believe there are other reasons to change the tax structure, but I don't think we can use this as the most important data point in that decision.

 

[chansen]

On a separate note, my dad always used to say it was an honor to pay taxes... because it meant he had money to pay taxes on. He grew up during the Great Depression and remembers what it was like to not have any money.

My grandmother is 97, and she says the US just needs another good depression to get our heads straight . I'm not sure I'd like to go through that, but I understand her point. The Great Depression taught a lot of valuable, 'real life' lessons that made lasting impacts on the hearts and minds of the people and their children.

And I agree with your sentiment on the graph data. Our world economy has changed, and pretty dramatically in the last 40 years. And while there are good things that come of it, they do come at a price.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I guess I just read the graph differently. It looks like the separation happened around 1975.

And what happened in the 1970's? The end of the Vietnam war. Normalization of relations with China. Banishment of princely rule in India. Industrialization and infrastructure development in the Philippines. And underlying it all... the explosion in the value of oil, which increased Indonesia's per capita GDP 545% between 1970 and 1980. People need to wake up and understand the US is not the center of the world, far from it. We can claim leadership in many things, but population and unskilled labor are NOT two of them.

 

[eugene brown]

This is my answer to both your questions.
Yes we have essentially had supply side economics since the early 80s when Reagan was in office. It has changed very little overall except small fluctuations. It has proven ineffective in building a middle class where we can have the American dream.
And yes the graph is telling and does reflect actually earnings from productivity. The difference is that the money is going to CEOs and executives within the company not trickling down to workers.
If you looked at a graph superimposed on the one above with executive and CEO salaries it would be right in line or higher then the productivity line.
Also again, you could super impose a graph line of housing and college cost on that graph and it would be in line or higher then productivity.
The only one that has systematically stayed the same or dropped is workers salary.

I wouldn't call the past 8 years trickle down especially with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, Obamacare and other legislation like dodd/frank. I agree with bonsai nut and chansen I that there's more to wage stagnation than tax policies such as, how has globalization affect the American worker and how has it suppressed wages.