For BVF and Rockm...a tree without potential?

[Poink88]

Here is a stump that I think a lot of people would consider w/o potential but I collected it last year partly because I have no idea what I am doing . I held on to it though and plan on experimenting on it.

Can you see some potential on this "junk"? Should it be sold to someone who doesn't know better or just discard it? If I work on this, how long will it take (in your opinion) to turn this around? If this is yours,how will you design this?

I want to hear a good (civil) discussion, both pro and con.

Thank you.

As of January 8, 2012 (after collection)
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As of Feb 3, 2013
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As of March 23, 2013
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As of September 8, 2013

 

[Nybonsai12]

Personally I don't see any potential. Just my .02

Should it be sold to someone who doesn't know better

And I don't think you should do that.

 

[Poink88]

And I don't think you should do that.

I know...it was a "quote" (and a joke) from someone from recent threads about plants w/o potential. I know better.

 

[coh]

What species is it? That might help determine whether you have a chance to make something out of it in your lifetime.

 

[rockm]

What's up with this?

And I'll try and bite my tongue on the unspoken hostility here, so Yeah, this has some potential (given a decade in the ground for the leader to even approach the needed diameter).

Sell it--shove it--I don't really care.

FWIW, most of the people ain't digging up stuff like this, or even have access to trees like this. This is hardly the top of a 5 foot nursery grown sapling...

 

[Poink88]

What species is it? That might help determine whether you have a chance to make something out of it in your lifetime.

Cedar Elm

What's up with this?

And I'll try and bite my tongue on the unspoken hostility here, so Yeah, this has some potential (given a decade in the ground for the leader to even approach the needed diameter).

Sell it--shove it--I don't really care.

FWIW, most of the people ain't digging up stuff like this, or even have access to trees like this. This is hardly the top of a 5 foot nursery grown sapling...

Nothings up, no hostility either. The origin is if all trees have potential or not. There was a thread by VBF where he asked me to do something similar. It is related to your comment that is why I posted this one from my "collection". This too IMHO is the most problematic piece I have that is why I chose it. BTW, can't plant on ground so it will stay in training pot.

 

[Poink88]

This is hardly the top of a 5 foot nursery grown sapling...

I maintain that IF a seed have potential, why won't the top of a sapling have one?

 

[nathanbs]

My advice would be to let it pop and see if the tree starts taking a direction on its own. I often stare at a tree here and there for a year or more before I can come up with a solid idea. Im sure the finished idea will incorporate a significant amount of carving. And why not sell it? Theres nothing wrong with selling your "junk". Ones man trash is another mans treasure, right?

 

[Poink88]

My advice would be to let it pop and see if the tree starts taking a direction on its own. I often stare at a tree here and there for a year or more before I can come up with a solid idea. Im sure the finished idea will incorporate a significant amount of carving. And why not sell it? Theres nothing wrong with selling your "junk". Ones man trash is another mans treasure, right?

True. That is why I have someones junk in my yard LOL which I otherwise probably cannot afford.

Truth be told, I already did something to this tree after fall...whether it is (one of) the right path or not is the big question. I promise to post a pic after I get more input/opinion.

 

[Stan Kengai]

Dario, to simplify things, there are 2 questions you need to consider here. "Everything has potential" to be a bonsai. If this is true, question #1 is: Do you want a bonsai, or do you want a good/great bonsai? No one strives for mediocrity, so I will assume that most everyone wants a good or great bonsai. The second question is then: Do you have time to transform this material into a good bonsai? In 20 years, this elm might be a good bonsai, but it also might not. Why invest that much time into something with an uncertain outcome? At this time, most of your trees appear to be raw stock. You will find over the next few years that as your collection matures, it actually takes more time and effort to maintain and develop them further, unless you're satisfied with mediocrity.

I maintain that IF a seed have potential, why won't the top of a sapling have one?

Yes, all seeds have potential, but not the same potential. Just like in people, some seeds are predestined to be better than other seeds. Whether because of genetic variations, early upbringing, availability/use of resources, diseases, conditions, etc., some seeds have the potential to grow up to be the president, while others are destined to be trash men. No amount of love and nurturing is going to make for these inherent deficiencies, when comparing to a plant with superior attributes. Ask anyone who has raised large batches of the same species (from seeds or cuttings) whether they think all plants have the same potential. I guaranty their answer will be no.

 

[KennedyMarx]

I think that there is potential as long as it sprouts new buds on the trunk. It would be a good candidate for carving with power tools once you have some branching and structure.

 

[Poink88]

Dario, to simplify things, there are 2 questions you need to consider here. "Everything has potential" to be a bonsai. If this is true, question #1 is: Do you want a bonsai, or do you want a good/great bonsai? No one strives for mediocrity, so I will assume that most everyone wants a good or great bonsai. The second question is then: Do you have time to transform this material into a good bonsai? In 20 years, this elm might be a good bonsai, but it also might not. Why invest that much time into something with an uncertain outcome? At this time, most of your trees appear to be raw stock. You will find over the next few years that as your collection matures, it actually takes more time and effort to maintain and develop them further, unless you're satisfied with mediocrity.



Yes, all seeds have potential, but not the same potential. Just like in people, some seeds are predestined to be better than other seeds. Whether because of genetic variations, early upbringing, availability/use of resources, diseases, conditions, etc., some seeds have the potential to grow up to be the president, while others are destined to be trash men. No amount of love and nurturing is going to make for these inherent deficiencies, when comparing to a plant with superior attributes. Ask anyone who has raised large batches of the same species (from seeds or cuttings) whether they think all plants have the same potential. I guaranty their answer will be no.

Thanks Stan...a lot of good points and I know where you are coming from.

Several things, people becoming President and trash man is not quite a good analogy for trees to bonsai IMHO, but I will indulge you. In high school...after spending 4-12 years with same classmates, you can tell who has the MOST potential but you can also see who applied better. Those who were guided (even the mediocre ones) finished college and had good jobs. Some of those who had good potential but slacked off amounted to nothing or had "mediocre" jobs. True that the ones with great potential and followed through had much better lives (work and earning potential at least). I think same or much so is true with trees...proper guidance and training goes a long way (more so than in human).

Whether I will be content with mediocrity or not remains to be seen but I don't believe so. Working with sub par material is a challenge I decided to undertake. Not because I am masochist but to (try and) prove that it can be done and to show others who cannot afford yamadori and premium stocks to have hope.

Great input and much appreciated.

 

[bonhe]

My advice would be to let it pop and see if the tree starts taking a direction on its own.

I agree with nathanbs. I don't have any experience with cedar elm, but Chinese and Cork elm. Elm easily has new growths emerge from the old wood.

I often stare at a tree here and there for a year or more before I can come up with a solid idea. Im sure the finished idea will incorporate a significant amount of carving.
Agree. If this tree was mine, I would remove the wood at the yellow line. My future plan would be a sumo type. Those 2 current branches might be removed in the future.

Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

Working with sub par material is a challenge I decided to undertake. Not because I am masochist but to (try and) prove that it can be done and to show others who cannot afford yamadori and premium stocks to have hope.

I like this.
Bonhe

 

[Poink88]

I like this.
Bonhe

Bonhe. Thank you...for me it is an opportunity. If say Kimura, Bill V, Walter P, Ryan N, Boone, etc. does the same...the impact might not be the same as coming from a (self taught) newbie like me. Other newbies won't have an excuse that it was done by a "professional". Those who are in it longer hopefully will be challenged to try it.

Hopefully they will be inspired and break the notion that bonsai is this mystic hobby that needs decades to produce a decent result.

This will either be my ugly duckling to a swan or my humiliation...that is if I don't kill it first LOL.

 

[rockm]

"Hopefully they will be inspired and break the notion that bonsai is this mystic hobby that needs decades to produce a decent result.

I can't figure out if you're simply lost in your own BS, or if you're just blind to it.

For starters, this hobby DOES sometimes (mostly), take decades or even centuries to produce the best, or even decent results.

The fact you're using a stump that at least three decades old as a starter kinda bends your statement that time doesn't matter all to hell. It matters enough, apparently, to use already-old material as a foundation...

Secondly, even if you do start with younger material, you have also stated that with TIME AND A LOT OF WORK, it can be turned into decent bonsai. That was only a few posts ago...

Either way, time is needed, and perhaps as much as ten years to produce a decent bonsai--show me a tree younger than five (that doesn't employ older yamadori as the foundation).

I know you're all about puncturing old fogies' myths and fighting their mean attempts to hold everyone else down, but c'mon spread the BS a little more thinly.

 

[jkd2572]

Dario,
Don't end up like this guy.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmfNN1br_Y

 

[Poink88]

"Hopefully they will be inspired and break the notion that bonsai is this mystic hobby that needs decades to produce a decent result.

I can't figure out if you're simply lost in your own BS, or if you're just blind to it.

For starters, this hobby DOES sometimes (mostly), take decades or even centuries to produce the best, or even decent results.

The fact you're using a stump that at least three decades old as a starter kinda bends your statement that time doesn't matter all to hell. It matters enough, apparently, to use already-old material as a foundation...

Secondly, even if you do start with younger material, you have also stated that with TIME AND A LOT OF WORK, it can be turned into decent bonsai. That was only a few posts ago...

Either way, time is needed, and perhaps as much as ten years to produce a decent bonsai--show me a tree younger than five (that doesn't employ older yamadori as the foundation).

I know you're all about puncturing old fogies' myths and fighting their mean attempts to hold everyone else down, but c'mon spread the BS a little more thinly.

Shows how you view things and coming from someone who accuse others of animosity . Thanks anyway.

I know and acknowledge some materials take longer and more effort than others. That doesn't diminish their potential in my mind.

Working with older "reject" materials (like this) that anyone can get their hands on anytime is a separate issue independent of time spent on the hobby. To say it will take 10 years for this to become descent IMHO is one way but there are means to shorten that. If you think it is BS then wait a few years (a lot less than 10) then tell me that again.

 

[mat]

Sure, everything has "some" potential, whether it's a seed, some collected elm stump or a fantastic yamadori Red Pine brought down from the mountain. I feel that you have to match that level of potential with the time and energy you have available to give the plant.

If you have infinite time & energy, then you should be collecting everything you see and sticking it in a pot. If your time/energy is limited (as with most of us) then you'll need to have some priorities. Kimura shouldn't be collecting every tree from the woods near his house (even if they have "some" potential), because that's not an appropriate use of his time/energy.

Dario, you obviously have lots of time/energy to spend on your passion - which is awesome. You're amassing a nice collection of material. But at some point you'll have to reach your limit. Then you'll need to look a piece of material and not ask "does this have any potential?" but rather "does this tree have enough potential to make it worth my time/energy?"

 

[Poink88]

Dario,
Don't end up like this guy.

I'll try not to LOL