Hoping for some 'nitty-gritty' understanding of IBA, specifically using it on collected materials :)

[SU2]

So I've gotten the idea that, while IBA is great for getting a cutting to root, perhaps it could be put-to-use on collected materials and am hoping to find out if I should pursue testing that or just put the idea to rest...essentially I see it as follows: I'd use IBA on a cutting, my understanding being that it helps the freshly-exposed cambial cells 'change'/differentiate into root-growing tissue - because of this I have heard people say it's useless on roots themselves, "roots are already roots so there's 0.00 use for IBA", this is what I want to contest (well, what I'm hoping isn't 100.0% the case haha!)

Is it true that IBA's **only** role is to change a cell's 'function type' from shoot/vegetative to root tissue or does it have general 'root boosting' properties? Further, I'm picturing its use on a just-collected yamadori- sure, the roots are there and, if we take-as-granted that it's of 0 use on a tree in a box whose roots are established, but what about that freshly collected guy? I just cut-off the bottom-halves of some of his nebari, I've even got parts of the trunk-base submerged- I can't help but think that using IBA here has a non-0 effect!

Thanks for any&all elucidation of this, I just got another container of the stuff to try some testers (regular A/B testing on a handful of small BC's to-be-collected for a forest-planting) and see if I get any statistically-significant #'s (ROFL I track things meticulously, but to determine 'statistical significance' I'll surely be on reddit.com/r/askmathetatics asking how to translate my #'s to 'significant'/'insignificant' ;P )

 

[Bonsai Nut]

"roots are already roots so there's 0.00 use for IBA"

This is my understanding as well. The presence of IBA at the proper concentration for the species triggers root development where none currently exists. At the wrong concentration, it does nothing, and where there are currently roots, it may even have a negative impact by burning the roots.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

IBA and IAA are signal hormones that set off a cascade of biological reactions that lead to root formation.
Too much of the stuff, and it inhibits rooting.
Too little, or zero, will cause serious growth distortions: there are papers out there about arabidopsis with all auxin responses removed. They look like cabbage.

Iba/auxins have a lot of other functions that are less related to rooting. It can improve rooting by a few hundred percents in collected material when dosed and timed right. The catch is: you can only guess the right concentration based on experiments on literature.

I did a whole lot of auxin studies, so feel free to ask me specific questions.

One thing that I found, is that over-use of external auxins can inhibit future auxin responsiveness. And that can be passed on to the next generations. A little less is always better.

 

[rockm]

Bottom line, I've found that using rooting hormones on the roots of collected trees doesn't really help at all. I just make sure newly collected tree roots remain underground, undisturbed, and moist. It is VERY important to wire newly collected trees into their containers. Wind, pets, clumsy owners can wind up shifting the tree at the wrong time. Bonsai soil is coarse and can damage roots easily, just like applying rough sandpaper to a newly painted surface.

Clean cuts, proper watering and potting are all more valuable tools to successful collecting than rooting hormone...

 

[penumbra]

It can do more harm than good. Use a vitamin solution with B1, preferably with kelp like Superthrive. I have been using this product and or kelp extract for more than 40 years and have always been pleased with the results.

 

[rockm]

Superthrive is another can of worms...
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/superthrive-it-works-myth.1589/

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Superthrive is another can of worms...

Every night I bathe in Superthrive... and I feel amazing! Literally!

 

[Shima]

Superthrive is another can of worms...
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/superthrive-it-works-myth.1589/

Yep. Same for B1 but wiser ones know to avoid engaging, I'm just feeling scrappy.

 

[SU2]

This is my understanding as well. The presence of IBA at the proper concentration for the species triggers root development where none currently exists. At the wrong concentration, it does nothing, and where there are currently roots, it may even have a negative impact by burning the roots.

Thanks for replying, your phrasing really helped me remember some things I'd read conceptually in a way I hadn't really gotten before....it's basically like steroids for humans (which I guess makes sense since it's just hormones for plants and hormones are "do stuff" triggers for living things) Do you happen to have any links to literature, or key figures/names or concepts to google? I'm doing my first two removals (air-layering(s) and possibly a ground-layering) this season and they're both on materials I'm realllly keen to see survive, have my walmart-bought IBA powder and some tan sphagnum, so far the idea is just simple bark-removals and then dusting w/ the IBA in some implicit assumption they've diluted that powder to just right concentrations lol! Really hoping to learn more, at least on ficus & kumquat!)

I suspect the Sources section of the IBA page on wikipedia will be a ripe place to check for #'s, but also bet that the pre-diluted powders that say to just stick branches into the powder as-is are probably diluted low-enough to be in a safe-zone (my stuff, GardenSafe's "Take Root", is 0.1% IBA, hopefully that's not *too* low!!)

 

[SU2]

IBA and IAA are signal hormones that set off a cascade of biological reactions that lead to root formation.
Too much of the stuff, and it inhibits rooting.
Too little, or zero, will cause serious growth distortions: there are papers out there about arabidopsis with all auxin responses removed. They look like cabbage.

Iba/auxins have a lot of other functions that are less related to rooting. It can improve rooting by a few hundred percents in collected material when dosed and timed right. The catch is: you can only guess the right concentration based on experiments on literature.

I did a whole lot of auxin studies, so feel free to ask me specific questions.

One thing that I found, is that over-use of external auxins can inhibit future auxin responsiveness. And that can be passed on to the next generations. A little less is always better.

Great reply thanks!!

If you happen to have links, or even keywords / authors, on any of the following concepts I'd love to read them- using auxins on collected materials (you meant using on tissue that is already exhibiting root phenotype to 'juice it up' basically like steroids in males right?), practical usage of powdered auxins on air-layerings (am about to do ficus.b and kumquat layerings this season and very-much want these first two layering attempts to make it!), and other synthetic hormones used in-general (I wish I could remember their names but I'd found a hormone, can't recall if it was an auxin, but it basically forced back-budding, I couldn't help but thinking it could be useful for coaxing otherwise-resistant species to back-bud, an activity I and many others could make great use of!!)

Thanks again, especially for the general-use advisement that less is better, I'm working with a 0.1% powder would you consider that a stronger or weaker product? The manufacturer advises using it straight, I've no idea how to approach the math for dosing the things I'd want to dose (as interested as I am in the ficus/kumquat layerings I'm just as curious about whether IBA could be used in a practical manner to boost survival% and speedy recovery of collected materials (bc's/bougies/whatever)

 

[SU2]

Bottom line, I've found that using rooting hormones on the roots of collected trees doesn't really help at all. I just make sure newly collected tree roots remain underground, undisturbed, and moist. It is VERY important to wire newly collected trees into their containers. Wind, pets, clumsy owners can wind up shifting the tree at the wrong time. Bonsai soil is coarse and can damage roots easily, just like applying rough sandpaper to a newly painted surface.

Clean cuts, proper watering and potting are all more valuable tools to successful collecting than rooting hormone...

Good to know am glad you found the thread! And kinda embarrassed to admit I rarely wire anything into its container lol, I mean some things just require it but as a rule I definitely don't (maybe 1 in 6 or 1 in 10 in my garden are wired-in, I've found that I'm definitely using a finer avg.particle size than most after going to my local bonsai club again and my species are just the type that root themselves in very very quickly so while I've had the rare issue of something tipping it is absurdly rare and almost-always something I look at and think "that was dumb" (not because it was un-wired but because the tilt was messed up or I let something flower to the side for 2mo w/o paying attention to its center of balance, stuff like that)

When you say 'clean cuts' can you elaborate? Aside from using sterile tools (I use 90% isopropyl on my hands&scissors when starting work), I know that there's talk about angles and stuff for cutting roots, I tend to just sawzall the bottom flat....would love to hear anything you can tell me on how you ensure 'clean' cuts, I'm sure many of mine aren't clean and would like to fix that especially with it being the first thing you mention in a successful collect! (before sawzalling the bottom, I've always just used my hands to gently maneuver the roots as I use a hand-saw to cut my specimen out of the ground, I use a sharp knife and make a 'clean' collect in that I'm not relying on slamming the trunk around for leverage like many do, I bend the tree side-to-side as gently as possible as I cut my way across the bottom, trying to leave several inches extra on the bottom til I get home to the sawzall, could do that in the swamp I guess but seems best to do that cut *right before* putting it in-pot IMO!)

[edited-in: OH and you're 100% on-point re bonsai soil being sharp.as-hell, roots are so damn tender and the stuff most use as aggregate will shred them, I always rely on water and *very* gentle finger-pressure to seat substrate on anything whether collections or re-pots, and once-potted make a point to never touch the container til I know the roots are established so wherever it is when that substrate is settled-in is where it's going to live for the first several months at least!]

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I will second the concern for hormones, GA, IBA, or any of the others, I have found from personal experience my inability to control dose rate has caused me more problems than it has helped. My experience has been negative. Part of the dose issue may be extrapolating from what species the research publications were using versus the species we have on our benches for which there is no research published. While effect and mechanisms might be the same from species to species, the right dose rate definitely varies. The other is, I tend to be haphazard with weighing and measuring. I tend to guess rather than actually weigh out material.

The one thing that ''seems'' to help in my less than scientific experience is Humic acids, Fulvic acids and various humates. I use a seaweed extract that specifically lists humates & or humic acids as an ingredient, or I use seaweed extract with a humic acids / humates / fulvic acids concentrate. Again, don't overdose. But this is what I use. There is University, peer reviewed literature that shows humic acids have benefits establishing plants and as part of routine plant supplementation. (in blueberries, of course).

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Great reply thanks!!

If you happen to have links, or even keywords / authors, on any of the following concepts I'd love to read them- using auxins on collected materials (you meant using on tissue that is already exhibiting root phenotype to 'juice it up' basically like steroids in males right?), practical usage of powdered auxins on air-layerings (am about to do ficus.b and kumquat layerings this season and very-much want these first two layering attempts to make it!), and other synthetic hormones used in-general (I wish I could remember their names but I'd found a hormone, can't recall if it was an auxin, but it basically forced back-budding, I couldn't help but thinking it could be useful for coaxing otherwise-resistant species to back-bud, an activity I and many others could make great use of!!)

Thanks again, especially for the general-use advisement that less is better, I'm working with a 0.1% powder would you consider that a stronger or weaker product? The manufacturer advises using it straight, I've no idea how to approach the math for dosing the things I'd want to dose (as interested as I am in the ficus/kumquat layerings I'm just as curious about whether IBA could be used in a practical manner to boost survival% and speedy recovery of collected materials (bc's/bougies/whatever)

You tend to ask a lot of consecutive questions, nothing wrong with that, but for me personally that makes things a bit blurry. I'll try to answer them as best as possible.

using auxins on collected materials (you meant using on tissue that is already exhibiting root phenotype to 'juice it up' basically like steroids in males right?)

Exactly. Just do it. There's no harm in extra hormonal signalling. Auxin signalling is always from the growing end to growing end. Auxins are produced both locally as well as apically. But when you cut down a bunch of roots, that signalling gets disturbed, a source disappears. If you want growth at both ends equally distributed, then I personally believe it's best to supply some extra. I have bookworks on it, but those are proprietary. Keywords could include: rooting behavior, cutting, microcutting, in vitro regeneration, multiplication of [plant name], auxin response, auxin sensitivity, and so on. Unfortunately, there's no clear line on which keywords are used most in these kind of studies, so switch them up until you find something!

practical usage of powdered auxins on air-layerings (am about to do ficus.b and kumquat layerings this season and very-much want these first two layering attempts to make it!),

Powdered hormones can be taken up when there's moisture. But they're usually composed out of talc powder and/or ground clay, that repel water. This makes it sticky on damp surfaces, and slow releasing. Double the benefits. I personally do prefer gels, because they don't have large amounts of calcium in them.

and other synthetic hormones used in-general (I wish I could remember their names but I'd found a hormone, can't recall if it was an auxin, but it basically forced back-budding, I couldn't help but thinking it could be useful for coaxing otherwise-resistant species to back-bud, an activity I and many others could make great use of!!)

"The effect of plant growth regulators on [insert plant species]" is always a good start. Phytohormones, plant growth regulators, and the like can be found on wikipedia with sometimes pretty extensive functionality descriptions. In general, there are auxins (elongation) and cytokinins (adventitious growth). As well as actual steroids, that have a whole other function compared to human steroids. I do have to note that science just hit the tip of the iceberg. New hormones and steroids are discovered monthly and they are all added to inventories of laboratory suppliers. There's this supplier with a absolutely great catalogue, not because I want you to buy things, but because they have descriptions of both every single nutrient (and its function in plants) as well as almost every known plant hormone. You can find the PDF here: http://brochure.duchefa-biochemie.com/Duchefa_catalogus_2010_2012/
Very much worth saving to your hard drive! A paper version can be bought for just a few cents (at least, that's what I see on their website).

I'm working with a 0.1% powder would you consider that a stronger or weaker product? The manufacturer advises using it straight, I've no idea how to approach the math for dosing the things I'd want to dose (as interested as I am in the ficus/kumquat layerings I'm just as curious about whether IBA could be used in a practical manner to boost survival% and speedy recovery of collected materials (bc's/bougies/whatever)

0.1% is pretty 'general' in strength. It's one gram per litre (a kilogram of water). Pines require at least 3% to root vigorously. Now, 0.1% could be strong enough, don't get me wrong! If the plants are sensitive enough. If you use too much, they might not root at all. So in general, less is always better. I'm using IBA and NAA both to speed up recovery. I'm not sure if it works, because I'm not risking a 'blank' control. Up until now, I'm at 95% survival rate based on 2018 and 2017. But it might drop to 70% in 2019 because I collected some plants in the dead of winter.
Let me rephrase that, I am sure it works, I'm just not sure how much of a difference it makes compared to no addition of rooting hormone.

My findings on a giant study I performed last year, over 5000 plants, are that rooting behavior with IBA compared to without is as follows:
- Higher amount of roots (higher overall number of roots)
- Roots have greater length (covering more distance in less time)
- Roots divide/branch and grow faster (faster restoration, by half a month)
- Roots have less girth and fewer hair roots (a big negative!)

In general, we concluded that A. restoration is faster and B. regular growth continues earlier and C. Auxin doesn't deplete as fast as literature says it does but also that D. plants require a cooldown period without auxins to invest in qualitative growth; the type of growth that matters for us. That same cooldown period is needed for plants to regain their auxin sensitivity and restore normal functions that were in high gears before. So using auxins continuously, is a very bad practice.

Activated charcoal can be used to suck auxins out of the soil. Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) can help preserve auxins in a solution.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

That being said, I work with high precision scales and laboratory material. There's no eyeballing going on and every equation is triple checked for accuracy. When I'm not sure, I ask someone to check it a fourth time. My deviations are in the range of 0.1 milligrams per litre.
My experience is the opposite of rockm and Leo, and they're not wrong when they say to be cautious with using the stuff. I screwed up a few times, just by adding a single drop too many. On a bucket. So that's 0.00001% (I'm eyeballing here).
I've been in bioscience for 10 years, gardening for 15 years and bonsai just for 2 or 3 years. Cumulative, my experiences with hormones are very, very positive. But as other say, you can do without. Plants have all that stuff in them already, it's hardcoded in their genes.
It's not risky if you know what you're doing, but it takes a tonne of effort to know what you're doing. A lot of people don't have the patience to do that. I mean, let's be honest: who really re-checks a single mathematic formula 3 times? And who really likes searching the web for four hours just to save a single plant they collected that lost it's appeal as soon as it came out of the dirt?
And if the experienced guys at the bonsai club say that a plant will make it, why question them and risk a screw up?
If there are less risky options, always pick those.

Usually, people resort to hormones as a last resort. To save things that are already very hard to save. And that's where accidents happen; a tiny extra drop, not measuring right, calculation errors, conversion errors, and so on. Then the entire project is lost and they blame the hormones. I see that happen on a professional basis too, and I do it too. Last year alone, we had to toss over 50 stock solutions made by highly trained professionals because of human errors. At least one of those was mine, prepared in a hurry. So even when people are paid to not hurry, to take their time and to do it right, these kind of things happen. In a home setting, they happen more often. That's just human nature. I'm confidently taking that risk and it works for me. But here in this thread there's a 2 vs. 1 situation, and if I were you, I'd go with those 2 instead of the 1.

 

[SU2]

It can do more harm than good. Use a vitamin solution with B1, preferably with kelp like Superthrive. I have been using this product and or kelp extract for more than 40 years and have always been pleased with the results.

Thanks, seems to be a proposition that's got minimal (potential) rewards with heavy risk (in the case of collected stuff), need to get kelp I keep hearing people swear by it but last time I had it in my hand I'm looking at the ~$10 product's label thinking "just which part of this was the good part?", is it a humic/fulvic acids thing? Cannot recall what, specifically, is making it so popular, can't help wondering whether it's proven in studies or not (I get false-positives all the time when tinkering with additives, never having any real 'controls' and often doing multiple changes in too-short time periods so it gets hard to ascribe anything to 1 variable sometimes)

 

[0soyoung]

@Wires_Guy_wires, does one need to expose cambium in order to get IBA/NAA adsorbed or can it be directly adsorbed effectively by roots and via lenticels. IOW, can one jus toss a rooting powder anywhere and expect it to get into the plant in any effective way?

 

[0soyoung]

often doing multiple changes in too-short time periods so it gets hard to ascribe anything to 1 variable sometimes)

There is a whole discipline called "Design of Experiments" devoted to this. The methodology is far more efficient that testing one factor at a time.

 

[SU2]

I will second the concern for hormones, GA, IBA, or any of the others, I have found from personal experience my inability to control dose rate has caused me more problems than it has helped. My experience has been negative. Part of the dose issue may be extrapolating from what species the research publications were using versus the species we have on our benches for which there is no research published. While effect and mechanisms might be the same from species to species, the right dose rate definitely varies. The other is, I tend to be haphazard with weighing and measuring. I tend to guess rather than actually weigh out material.

The one thing that ''seems'' to help in my less than scientific experience is Humic acids, Fulvic acids and various humates. I use a seaweed extract that specifically lists humates & or humic acids as an ingredient, or I use seaweed extract with a humic acids / humates / fulvic acids concentrate. Again, don't overdose. But this is what I use. There is University, peer reviewed literature that shows humic acids have benefits establishing plants and as part of routine plant supplementation. (in blueberries, of course).

Agree, the hormones seem more trouble than they're worth, the only use I can see justified is aerial layerings (or maybe not even there? I know the technique is far older than synthetic auxins, though I'm betting my 0.1% isn't going to be too-strong for most layerings if done as a quick dusting followed by slapping-on soaked sphagnum (I hope lol!! When you talk about dosages I have to imagine it's using more 'pro grade' hormones, not pre-diluted walmart stuff like my 0.1% - please let me know if I'm assuming a false premise there!)

Re seaweed extract, I wonder how much that intersects with kelp's (supposed?) benefits, I'm now wondering which is better (or if both are good in their own ways) as I wanted to try kelp regardless and, while you're speaking of seaweed extract (I'd assume there's a lot of crossover), the idea of humates is enticing, I feel like I've seen literature on *both* fulvic & humic (also am betting that overdosing isn't nearly as relevant a concern as with hormones), will have to get (seaweed/kelp) the next time I'm at the store, feel like I've optimized every other part of fortifying & conditioning the water except fulvic/humic acids (I'm going to have to look into whether they're associated w/ compost tea, as I'm about to start brewing that I actually started the setup this afternoon I just need to setup a filter for the pump and I'm in business), although OTOH I'm quite sure you can buy them raw as chemicals for far cheaper, maybe that is a worthy consideration..

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

@Wires_Guy_wires, does one need to expose cambium in order to get IBA/NAA adsorbed or can it be directly adsorbed effectively by roots and via lenticels. IOW, can one jus toss a rooting powder anywhere and expect it to get into the plant in any effective way?

Well, rooting powder can contain both IBA in pure form as well as a solluble salt. In pure form, it dissolves poorly in water with a high pH. In salt form, it can dissolve quite easily. But both forms can be taken up through foliage, roots and direct cambium contact. Basically every part that can take up water with solutes, can take up water bound hormones.
I do have to note that foliar sprays have the tendency to affect apical elongation a lot, sometimes causing curled stem growth and twisted leaves.

 

[rockm]

Good to know am glad you found the thread! And kinda embarrassed to admit I rarely wire anything into its container lol, I mean some things just require it but as a rule I definitely don't (maybe 1 in 6 or 1 in 10 in my garden are wired-in, I've found that I'm definitely using a finer avg.particle size than most after going to my local bonsai club again and my species are just the type that root themselves in very very quickly so while I've had the rare issue of something tipping it is absurdly rare and almost-always something I look at and think "that was dumb" (not because it was un-wired but because the tilt was messed up or I let something flower to the side for 2mo w/o paying attention to its center of balance, stuff like that)

When you say 'clean cuts' can you elaborate? Aside from using sterile tools (I use 90% isopropyl on my hands&scissors when starting work), I know that there's talk about angles and stuff for cutting roots, I tend to just sawzall the bottom flat....would love to hear anything you can tell me on how you ensure 'clean' cuts, I'm sure many of mine aren't clean and would like to fix that especially with it being the first thing you mention in a successful collect! (before sawzalling the bottom, I've always just used my hands to gently maneuver the roots as I use a hand-saw to cut my specimen out of the ground, I use a sharp knife and make a 'clean' collect in that I'm not relying on slamming the trunk around for leverage like many do, I bend the tree side-to-side as gently as possible as I cut my way across the bottom, trying to leave several inches extra on the bottom til I get home to the sawzall, could do that in the swamp I guess but seems best to do that cut *right before* putting it in-pot IMO!)

[edited-in: OH and you're 100% on-point re bonsai soil being sharp.as-hell, roots are so damn tender and the stuff most use as aggregate will shred them, I always rely on water and *very* gentle finger-pressure to seat substrate on anything whether collections or re-pots, and once-potted make a point to never touch the container til I know the roots are established so wherever it is when that substrate is settled-in is where it's going to live for the first several months at least!]

Clean as in "VERY SHARP" cutting edges that leave "clean" not ragged edges on cuts. Ragged edged cuts can thwart rooting and promote rot. Sawzall cuts are not clean. I go back and recut ragged ends with concave cutters.

has nothing to do with initial collection. All this clean up is done AFTER collection and prior to being put into the container.

And wiring is KEY to good growing. Some folks are lazy and don't do it. It does affect recovery