Horstmann Blue Cedar

[Ris]

Hello All,
Let me introduce myself, my name is Rishi and have been collecting bonsai for around 2 years now. I have different trees and like this blue cedar I to love these trees and have 1 in training acquired earlier this year 2012. It will be a very nice work in progress but want to find out when would be best for potting these? I noticed new shoots about 3 weeks ago and did prune of the unwanted its about 25" tall. I defoilated a American Liquid Amber about 2to 3 weeks ago and is slowly bursting its buds will post pictures if my camera fee like turning on lol.

Please advise on the root pruning...

Best regards,
Rishi.

 

[misfit11]

Hi, Rishi,
Depending where you are in the world (northern or southern hemisphere), this is a conifer and will not appreciate any root work this time of year. Next spring you can inspect the rootball and see if repotting is in order. If so, don't bareroot the tree. Rather, leave half of the original soil while incorporating bonsai soil (there are soil threads on this forum). Make sure you wire in the tree when you pot it up. I wish i'd learned this early on!

As far as styling is concerned, I don't feel as if the lower 2 or 3 branches belong. Assuming you want to keep this tree at its current height, I would remove them and jin out the top. This tree has nice enough taper and you've got foliage in close to the trunk (something that my blue atlas does not and I need to do some grafting.... but that's another story...). You could even leave some stubs of those lower branches and do some very small jinning. Then it is a matter of developing the remaing branches and you've got a very respectable tree! Congrats!

Well.. anyway, that's my opinion...

Cory

 

[Ris]

Hi Cory,
Thanks for your opinion. I will give it another look towards styling.
At first I didn't want to do much styling and get others opinion which way this tree will be best styled.
I did cover about 4 to 5” of the trunk with pine bark mix with soil,
So it has some trunk under those 3 branches mentioned.
Its pushing more growth to date and will hold of on any work till next spring.
Am in California so hope others can share their experience in this type.
I will take a trip to the Nursery where I got this tree may be get another.
I also got a really nice liquid amber that has a really good nebari but need branch development, will post picture soon (camera giving problems).
Thanks again,
Rishi.

 

[Si Nguyen]

Hi Rishi! Fancy seeing you here. Welcome aboard.

This cedar is too tall and taperless. I think you will need to chop it down by half eventually. Maybe even leaning it and bringing up a new leader for a more interesting trunk line.

Good luck!
Si

 

[bonsaibp]

Hello All,
Let me introduce myself, my name is Rishi and have been collecting bonsai for around 2 years now. I have different trees and like this blue cedar I to love these trees and have 1 in training acquired earlier this year 2012. It will be a very nice work in progress but want to find out when would be best for potting these? I noticed new shoots about 3 weeks ago and did prune of the unwanted its about 25" tall. I defoilated a American Liquid Amber about 2to 3 weeks ago and is slowly bursting its buds will post pictures if my camera fee like turning on lol.

Please advise on the root pruning...

Best regards,
Rishi.

Definitely no root pruning now. Depending on where in CA I'd say sometime between mid March to early May would be best. You may want to consider jinning the top to create some more taper and hide that chop scar it'll take forever and then some to heal a trunk scar that big.

 

[gergwebber]

I like it. and I love the branch weights! I use rocks wrapped up with copper wire myself. I like to make a hook on the top of the weight with a loop underneath (so I can add more)

I say this is a great tree for a new bonsai-ist. I like telephone pole style myself; it is a style seen often in the wild here in the continental US... and that will be a good style for this tree in the short term as it will allow for many modifications and adjustments like Si said... I like the jin idea, and try to get the branches moving down asap(which I see you are doing!)

but these should come after more research and experience as you may easily take this tree in a direction you don't really appreciate in a few years when your bonsai tastes have had time to mature. TRUST ME! they will!!! I am in the process of correcting grievous styling mistakes in all of my oldest(first acquired) trees.

Remember, when taking styling advice from these guys, they are used to seeing/working on/owning, some of the best and boldest trees in the world. And for beginners like myself, I find no shame in having a below average tree or even a darn near "un-showable" one

just keep it happy and healthy for the next few years and all will be well.

 

[misfit11]

You may want to consider jinning the top to create some more taper and hide that chop scar it'll take forever and then some to heal a trunk scar that big.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bob here, Risi. Cedars grow very slowly. You wouldn't see a chop scar close in your lifetime if you decided to reduce the height of the tree significantly and choose a new leader. I think you can develop this into a very nice naturalistic tree in a dead-top conifer style. With some convincing jin work on the top that tells the story of an old tree that has had a harsh existence (perhaps it was struck by lightning or something...) and also induces more taper into the tree, you are halfway there.

Look at what Grouper52 did with this Austrian Black Pine in this thread:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?4940-Pinus-Nigra-Log-In-A-Pot-Project



I think you could do something similar with your Cedar.

Cory

 

[Brian Underwood]

First thing's first, no branch weights. It looks terrible and is essentially ineffective. If you can't move a branch as far as you want with an appropriate gauge wire, then you should use a tourniquet anchored to either another branch, stub, or a screw in the trunk or a root. Learning to wire properly is essential, don't take the easy way out as it will lead to regret later in the game.

So, repotting here in northern California for cedars takes place a little later than most species. I start around May/June when the daytime temps are around 70, and night around 50. They respond better when the weather is a bit warmer. When dealing with the rootball, you should not take more than 1/3 off when repotting if you can help it. Should be potted in a pretty fast draining soil mix. I use what Jim Gremel sells; http://bonsaitonight.com/2010/10/01/bonsai-soil/

As for styling, see the attached picture. The red is where I would make my cuts, and jin the top. The green lines are where the above branches should be moved. Sometimes when removing a branch, you can leave a bare stub to be used as an anchor. In a few years, if properly fertilized it should be looking pretty good! Have fun!

 

[gergwebber]

First thing's first, no branch weights. It looks terrible and is essentially ineffective.

I should say that I agree with the ineffective in bonsai bit in most cases (I only use them in-between wiring periods) I disagree with ugly though. If you use the right rocks as weights, they can look like floating suiseki. I mainly use them in the larger landscape though. They are great for bringing large branches down on focal trees like JP maples and Dogwoods to create large scale foliage pad without having all the hardware out in the yard.

 

[misfit11]

First thing's first, no branch weights. It looks terrible and is essentially ineffective. If you can't move a branch as far as you want with an appropriate gauge wire, then you should use a tourniquet anchored to either another branch, stub, or a screw in the trunk or a root. Learning to wire properly is essential, don't take the easy way out as it will lead to regret later in the game.

So, repotting here in northern California for cedars takes place a little later than most species. I start around May/June when the daytime temps are around 70, and night around 50. They respond better when the weather is a bit warmer. When dealing with the rootball, you should not take more than 1/3 off when repotting if you can help it. Should be potted in a pretty fast draining soil mix. I use what Jim Gremel sells; http://bonsaitonight.com/2010/10/01/bonsai-soil/

As for styling, see the attached picture. The red is where I would make my cuts, and jin the top. The green lines are where the above branches should be moved. Sometimes when removing a branch, you can leave a bare stub to be used as an anchor. In a few years, if properly fertilized it should be looking pretty good! Have fun!

All good advice, Brian.

 

[Ris]

Hi Rishi! Fancy seeing you here. Welcome aboard.

This cedar is too tall and taperless. I think you will need to chop it down by half eventually. Maybe even leaning it and bringing up a new leader for a more interesting trunk line.

Good luck!
Si

Hi Si,
How are you? Thanks for your view of a future style of the cedar.
I will look into every option for the best creation.
Thanks Rishi.

 

[Ris]

Definitely no root pruning now. Depending on where in CA I'd say sometime between mid March to early May would be best. You may want to consider jinning the top to create some more taper and hide that chop scar it'll take forever and then some to heal a trunk scar that big.

Hello Bob,

Thanks for the info, so far all replies point to a gin top. Kool.

Thanks Rishi.

 

[Ris]

First thing's first, no branch weights. It looks terrible and is essentially ineffective. If you can't move a branch as far as you want with an appropriate gauge wire, then you should use a tourniquet anchored to either another branch, stub, or a screw in the trunk or a root. Learning to wire properly is essential, don't take the easy way out as it will lead to regret later in the game.

So, repotting here in northern California for cedars takes place a little later than most species. I start around May/June when the daytime temps are around 70, and night around 50. They respond better when the weather is a bit warmer. When dealing with the rootball, you should not take more than 1/3 off when repotting if you can help it. Should be potted in a pretty fast draining soil mix. I use what Jim Gremel sells; http://bonsaitonight.com/2010/10/01/bonsai-soil/

As for styling, see the attached picture. The red is where I would make my cuts, and jin the top. The green lines are where the above branches should be moved. Sometimes when removing a branch, you can leave a bare stub to be used as an anchor. In a few years, if properly fertilized it should be looking pretty good! Have fun!

Hello Brian,

A big thanks for doing the green line and red cut of point on the tree
I will work on it may be this weekend if am not called to work...
Thanks for the root work info, am in Santa Ana close to Si lol.

Thanks Rishi.

 

[bonsaibp]

In Santa Anna April or May would probably be ideal for root work.

 

[Brian Underwood]

This video is how I try to wire cedars; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQOKO6ZZq7Y&feature=plcp

It is something I am still striving for, and not something easy to do.

 

[Ris]

This video is how I try to wire cedars; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQOKO6ZZq7Y&feature=plcp

It is something I am still striving for, and not something easy to do.

Thanks these guys are great I have seen all their videos.
Rishi.

 

[Ris]

Hello All,

Here is a picture of the blue cedar, it will need a couple years growth to fill out.
May be I would place in ground?

 

[october]

Hello Ris.. I commend you on wanting to get right in there and prune with enthusiasm. However, there are a couple of things I would like to mention. Many times, cedars do not like to be pruned this much. Leaving just 3 or 4 branches on a cedar can sometimes mean death for the the tree. However, you will bot know if the tree is struggling until about 2 -2 1/2 months. If the needles just start falling off in sections throughout the tree, it would be too late to save it.

Also, I kind of liked the original pics of the tree. I feel that after the removal of all those branches, the tree doesn't have the natural form of a tree anymore. I think that over the years, you may have been able to grow some nice foliage pads and had a natural looking design. I guess we will have to wait and see what the tree decides to do.

I hope this was helpful and good luck.

Rob

 

[Ris]

Hello Ris.. I commend you on wanting to get right in there and prune with enthusiasm. However, there are a couple of things I would like to mention. Many times, cedars do not like to be pruned this much. Leaving just 3 or 4 branches on a cedar can sometimes mean death for the the tree. However, you will bot know if the tree is struggling until about 2 -2 1/2 months. If the needles just start falling off in sections throughout the tree, it would be too late to save it.

Also, I kind of liked the original pics of the tree. I feel that after the removal of all those branches, the tree doesn't have the natural form of a tree anymore. I think that over the years, you may have been able to grow some nice foliage pads and had a natural looking design. I guess we will have to wait and see what the tree decides to do.

I hope this was helpful and good luck.

Rob

Thanks for this valuable information wish I got it before the styling, I kinda liked the natural look but went with a intention to show of a slow hardship with weather...
That idea aside I cant undo the past and will keep your information at the top of my head, I have found a few others that will be styled more natural...
The tree looks ok with new growth pushing so fingers crossed for a smooth recover...

Thanks Rishi.

 

[october]

Hi Ris.. You can still get that old, natural look somewhat back, maybe even make it better. It wil ltake about 5-6 years. Here are a couple of virts. This is just one idea. First bend the top, small branch in the upright position to form an young apex structure. Now let it grow like crazy. Leave it untouched for a few years. At which point, you will have many new, young top branches to work with. Now, you can wire a branch on the left and a branch on the right and have a brand new apex. Also, you would want the jin to sill remain in the front of the apex or have the apex on the side of the jin. As long at the top jin is mostly visible.

Here are just a couple of rough virts of what I mean. This could probably be achieved in 5-6 years.

Rob