How to get beat up on Reddit's /r/Bonsai. A guide.

[MaciekA]

I also love how the page gets locked from the public about three or four times a year, as if there's treasures to be kept a secret.

I've never seen or heard anything about this and am one of the mods. What does this refer to? Was it in the last 2.5 years or earlier?

 

[Paradox]

I dont care what topic it is, Reddit ends up as a toxic cesspool a lot of the time

 

[rockm]

Wow, So the message is "don't EVER post on Reddit." I can barely stand some of the idiots on this forum. much less a million more.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've never seen or heard anything about this and am one of the mods. What does this refer to? Was it in the last 2.5 years or earlier?

I've seen it happen about three times this year; if you aren't a member or don't have an account, you're not allowed to view. Usually doesn't last long, maybe a day or two.

 

[trigo]

Hey @BillsBayou , you and I have spoken before on the sub, I really enjoy your content and comments. I spent a few hours repotting trees with Evan who earlier this year visited us here and travelled from your part of the world. I have a lot of respect for you. I am sad that you've decided to criticize the sub in this way, as a sarcastic list.

I don't know which other mod you're referring to regarding the ficus, I can't speak for them, but I really wish you didn't perpetuate this equally nasty habit of shitting on other forums. A tiny handful of volunteers with day jobs and families can't realistically wrangle a minimum of 260,000 people who say whatever they want and often operate in emergent brigades and mobs which are often composed entirely of beginners or bonsai-unaware people just raging about tree torture or anti-yamadori sentiment or upvoting whatever looks cute without knowing whether it's bonsai or not. We are all in the same boat, really. I don't envy the jobs of the mods on bnut, but the difference on reddit is that we're many many many times larger and sometimes have to deal with some really unhinged people whether we want to or not, because we if we don't we get a flood of complaints in the modqueue.

You may see what seems like an unfair ban from a reasonable sounding person which was "made on bonsai grounds". But bans are not made on bonsai grounds. 99% of the time, bans are made on the grounds that someone has started to get into vicious fights with people. Perhaps you see a couple reasonable comments, but that is all you see after the post-fight cleanup where we've had to delete someone resorting to names or racism or whatever. The mods meanwhile will see dozens of hidden comments in flamewars and fights -- we get floods of reports on these comments in real time as they happen.

If you see a properly unfair ban, I am actually very interested in seeing that, because I feel like I completely share your sensibilities about this, and I'd argue at least that @jeremy_norbury does too . You could ping me about that, or you could ping @jeremy_norbury , and I promise I'm interested in looking at that in a thoughtful and fair way. We're regular-ass people with full time day jobs and families -- you, me and Jeremy all know common people / artists / teachers / growers in the real world. We're not faceless basement-dweller randos cackling with glee as we finger-flick yet another dipshit off the sub for trivial reasons like "glued on rocks" or "we don't like your bonsai" or "get that stupid ginseng outta here" or "your definition of the word bonsai isn't correct". That is not how any of it works. If you think it does, all I can say is that the sub you imagine in your head isn't the one I'm trying to contribute to and build.

This is sometimes very frustrating and challenging because I actually get about 100X more direct and indirect comments that our moderation isn't strict enough and that the content/experience is TOO friendly, TOO beginner, TOO welcoming, TOO accepting of what Bonsai people consider "bonsai". Imagine for a moment bnut had traffic in the millions per week, that 260,000 people are active subs on that hypothetical bnut, and that it's all one single giant superforum, not a dozen subforums. What can you reasonably expect? How are you going to herd that many cats? How are you going to account for people who are trolling the sub for sport, day and night? If you were one of our mods @BillsBayou , (hey, you seem passionate about this, are you interested in helping? Serious question), would you let every single pointless fight over word semantics rage uncontrolled a dozen times a month, allowing the sentiment to build up that your sub sucks and that it freely allows assholes rule the day?

Do we listen to voices like @trigo and @Srt8madness and put up a rule "no sticks in pots or you get banned!" and then get floods of appeals in the modqueue? (I wish! I'm tired of mallsai and indoor junipers too). Do we listen to folks like yourself who think the sub is too ban happy and just let everything go, but still get a flood of daily flaggings in the modqueue, because people are upset that angry antisocial people are overrunning the subreddit, beating up on noobs? (I wish for this too. No unfair bans, ever. Every argument settled down and made whole in the end). Can I convince you that in the balance between those two things, given what Reddit is and what it can never become, that we currently arrive at what is possible, but not ideal, because that'd take a big staff of people, restructuring of how reddit works, or else a big stick wielded too capriciously? And that we're actually trying to improve in whatever way we can?

If y'all don't like what you see on the sub but still visit it often anyway, all I can say is that you should try to do what I did and contribute. Help lead the way with a positive friendly approach while modelling highly civil, mature, unflappable, unpetty behavior.

This bnut post didn't lean that way today, @BillsBayou , and made me feel a bit deflated after what I thought was some progress over the last couple years. But in spite of the pile-on, I hope you and others change your minds and help us gently nudge the unconstrained herd of cats in a better direction, even knowing that it is a very difficult task, even knowing that we're going to get crapped on by trolls or people who want to fight anyone that claims black pine can't grow indoors... Because for better or worse, that sub is probably numbers-wise the planet's biggest firehose where a major portion of bonsai-curious people who speak English eventually end up. PHP-powered forums are invisible to a huge portion of the planet and always will be. The big stage is messy but you can reach a lot of people if your passion is to help and spread knowledge. Be the change you want to see. And ping me when you see unfairness. I am 100% interested in that.

Probably 80% of the posts on r/Bonsai are seedlings, 5 dollar trees and things like that... i also have seedlings and very early stage material but i don't need to show anybody my 1 year old jabuticaba sprout.

I stopped following there because as i learned more about bonsai (im still a beginner just to be clear), these types of posts were not appealing to me anymore and it just became boring having to navigate through several posts like that to see something interesting / learn something. I still think the problem is that people are too lazy to do their own research and those several posts of, as you said, "mallsai and indoor junipers".

In my opinion these kind of posts that can be answered just going to your side bar links (should be posted on begginers thread) and photos of seedlings that there are nothing to be discussed or any knowled to be gained, should be moderated and outright deleted. Maybe make a fixed monthly or weekly thread to beginners post their sticks and seedlings?

 

[MaciekA]

Probably 80% of the posts on r/Bonsai are seedlings, 5 dollar trees and things like that... i also have seedlings and very early stage material but i don't need to show anybody my 1 year old jabuticaba sprout. I stopped following there because as i learned more about bonsai (im still a beginner just to be clear), these types of posts were not appealing to me anymore and it just became boring having to navigate through several posts like that to see something interesting / learn something. I still think the problem is that people are too lazy to do their own research and those several posts of, as you said, "mallsai and indoor junipers".

Quite true, and understandable on your part.

I think one of the uncomfortable realities of the sub is that it fairly accurately reflects the true nature of the general population's interest and understanding in bonsai (in the English-speaking sphere at least), and that default level of understanding is very distant from what effective bonsai actually is. If a reddit sub wants to tighten the definition of some cherished concepts/ideas/definitions, it can only move the dial so much to educate people unless the moderators are full time reddit moderators, and that's rarely the case. Subs like /r/AskHistorians require a lot of borderline full time work from many people.

So we can educate and lift the quality of the posts, and if you squint, the quality has improved in the last 2 or 3 years. But a big problem is that at the same time, there's a strong tendency on reddit for people to get wildly perturbed if anyone tries to course correct away from the realm of:

"beginners making things up as they go and guessing at techniques from scratch, or from misinformation booklets that say to water using an ice cube"

toward the realm of:

"this is how bonsai is done by people who've been doing it for more than a few months, or have written bonsai books with ISBN numbers, or have businesses which make bonsai, or have studied it in japan and elsewhere"

The general population doesn't want to hear that bonsai is anything other than a literal interpretation of "tree in pot", and challenging this notion tends to quickly mushroom into bitter emotions, often between people who don't even frequent the sub. When some of those people start making threats or lashing out at other visitors, they get a ban, and then the mods have to look like the bad guys.

The one exception to this is the beginners thread, where the social contract is that someone came to ask for help. Questions that are asked in the main feed are usually a lion's den. You are just as likely to get an answer from me, a student who has studied under a professional for years, as someone who has never seen a bonsai in person and is just making stuff up. This happens every day. Unfortunately I think that fully preventing this (and addressing your concern below) means that the moderators would have to choke off much of the completely innocent but overwhelming noob excitement that is otherwise quite fine, and great. I can't think of a good reason to stop someone from sharing their excitement if that stick in a pot is leading them to effective bonsai in the end. The beginners thread and other parts of the sub are full of people who've gone from stick in a pot posts to competent bonsai.

In my opinion these kind of posts that can be answered just going to your side bar links (should be posted on begginers thread) and photos of seedlings that there are nothing to be discussed or any knowled to be gained, should be moderated and outright deleted. Maybe make a fixed monthly or weekly thread to beginners post their sticks and seedlings?

Practically-speaking, it is really difficult to implement the last point (about moderation / outright deletion). It's a lot of work (i.e. /r/AskHistorians ), but then also that work doesn't have great benefit to us personally: It makes people very angry and bitter. Someone will post a picture of what to any reasonable person on bnut is just a bog-standard totally normal tree in a walmart parking lot, claiming its the best inspiration for bonsai they've ever seen, one of our mods removes it for being off-topic, and that person then rages in the modqueue for quite a while thereafter.

A subreddit is very much unlike a PHP-powered forum like this one and is much closer to an instagram hashtag. Mods are mere custodians at best unless they want to put a tremendous amount of time and effort into simulating a more buttoned up forum. If we try to make it like this one, we'll never hear the end of the gatekeeping accusations, and we unfortunately already have those accusations flying every day, even while those that we respect in the community tell us we're not gatekeeping enough. It's a challenge.

 

[trigo]

Quite true, and understandable on your part.

I think one of the uncomfortable realities of the sub is that it fairly accurately reflects the true nature of the general population's interest and understanding in bonsai (in the English-speaking sphere at least), and that default level of understanding is very distant from what effective bonsai actually is. If a reddit sub wants to tighten the definition of some cherished concepts/ideas/definitions, it can only move the dial so much to educate people unless the moderators are full time reddit moderators, and that's rarely the case. Subs like /r/AskHistorians require a lot of borderline full time work from many people.

So we can educate and lift the quality of the posts, and if you squint, the quality has improved in the last 2 or 3 years. But a big problem is that at the same time, there's a strong tendency on reddit for people to get wildly perturbed if anyone tries to course correct away from the realm of:

"beginners making things up as they go and guessing at techniques from scratch, or from misinformation booklets that say to water using an ice cube"

toward the realm of:

"this is how bonsai is done by people who've been doing it for more than a few months, or have written bonsai books with ISBN numbers, or have businesses which make bonsai, or have studied it in japan and elsewhere"

The general population doesn't want to hear that bonsai is anything other than a literal interpretation of "tree in pot", and challenging this notion tends to quickly mushroom into bitter emotions, often between people who don't even frequent the sub. When some of those people start making threats or lashing out at other visitors, they get a ban, and then the mods have to look like the bad guys.

The one exception to this is the beginners thread, where the social contract is that someone came to ask for help. Questions that are asked in the main feed are usually a lion's den. You are just as likely to get an answer from me, a student who has studied under a professional for years, as someone who has never seen a bonsai in person and is just making stuff up. This happens every day. Unfortunately I think that fully preventing this (and addressing your concern below) means that the moderators would have to choke off much of the completely innocent but overwhelming noob excitement that is otherwise quite fine, and great. I can't think of a good reason to stop someone from sharing their excitement if that stick in a pot is leading them to effective bonsai in the end. The beginners thread and other parts of the sub are full of people who've gone from stick in a pot posts to competent bonsai.



Practically-speaking, it is really difficult to implement the last point (about moderation / outright deletion). It's a lot of work (i.e. /r/AskHistorians ), but then also that work doesn't have great benefit to us personally: It makes people very angry and bitter. Someone will post a picture of what to any reasonable person on bnut is just a bog-standard totally normal tree in a walmart parking lot, claiming its the best inspiration for bonsai they've ever seen, one of our mods removes it for being off-topic, and that person then rages in the modqueue for quite a while thereafter.

A subreddit is very much unlike a PHP-powered forum like this one and is much closer to an instagram hashtag. Mods are mere custodians at best unless they want to put a tremendous amount of time and effort into simulating a more buttoned up forum. If we try to make it like this one, we'll never hear the end of the gatekeeping accusations, and we unfortunately already have those accusations flying every day, even while those that we respect in the community tell us we're not gatekeeping enough. It's a challenge.

While i don't know anything about managing a subreddit and a moderators job, i do understand your point of view... I don't have a solution to give you, but i still think that the current subreddit will have a tendency of keeping away more experienced people that are flooded with those posts. Only those that truly want to help beginners will stay there and have the patience to answer them, im just not one of those people... But good luck there! without a doubt it's still an entry way for people to discuss bonsai on the internet and i think those that really take it seriously will eventualy end here or other more "focused" forums.

 

[naleshin]

Probably 80% of the posts on r/Bonsai are seedlings, 5 dollar trees and things like that... i also have seedlings and very early stage material but i don't need to show anybody my 1 year old jabuticaba sprout.

I stopped following there because as i learned more about bonsai (im still a beginner just to be clear), these types of posts were not appealing to me anymore and it just became boring having to navigate through several posts like that to see something interesting / learn something. I still think the problem is that people are too lazy to do their own research and those several posts of, as you said, "mallsai and indoor junipers".

In my opinion these kind of posts that can be answered just going to your side bar links (should be posted on begginers thread) and photos of seedlings that there are nothing to be discussed or any knowled to be gained, should be moderated and outright deleted. Maybe make a fixed monthly or weekly thread to beginners post their sticks and seedlings?

The reason you see so many seedlings/small trees is because these beginners are enthusiastic and excited to get started. They shouldn't be chastised for that, no one should. There are always going to be an exponential number of beginners more than intermediate/expert level practitioners. As an active member of the sub, personally I think it's best to try to help kindle their flame into a full on blazing fire, otherwise the fire goes out really fast. The fire goes out when that beginner comes across incorrect info and so they think they have a brown thumb, or when they're met with piss poor attitudes toward their material and think "Wow, these people are assholes. Not sure I want to be a part of a hobby with a community like this."

I used to be that beginner, posting every single little thing wrong with my first juniper. I thought the algae growing on my soil was moss. I used to update with a post almost every tiny step of work I did. I've grown a metric crap ton since then, and I have the sub to thank. I'm in the same boat as you to where I've "grown out of it" to a degree, there isn't as much to learn on it because after a couple years of frequenting the sub, a lot of the same questions do become repetitive. But I implore you to help out in the weekly thread then- sometimes you see clever techniques you haven't seen before, sometimes you get challenging questions that you don't know the answer to. Watch to see what one of the more experienced members replies with, or call out someone if their info's BS (respectfully!)

It's really fulfilling to give worthwhile/meaningful advice to beginners, especially when they're legitimately interested in going "all the way". Even still, not everyone's going to follow through, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try. There's hundreds of thousands of people in the sub, lots of foot traffic, and you have the potential to make a huge difference in hopefully converting more people to practicing bonsai "properly". The more people practicing, the better, because it means more beautiful trees!

 

[trigo]

The reason you see so many seedlings/small trees is because these beginners are enthusiastic and excited to get started. They shouldn't be chastised for that, no one should. There are always going to be an exponential number of beginners more than intermediate/expert level practitioners. As an active member of the sub, personally I think it's best to try to help kindle their flame into a full on blazing fire, otherwise the fire goes out really fast. The fire goes out when that beginner comes across incorrect info and so they think they have a brown thumb, or when they're met with piss poor attitudes toward their material and think "Wow, these people are assholes. Not sure I want to be a part of a hobby with a community like this."

I used to be that beginner, posting every single little thing wrong with my first juniper. I thought the algae growing on my soil was moss. I used to update with a post almost every tiny step of work I did. I've grown a metric crap ton since then, and I have the sub to thank. I'm in the same boat as you to where I've "grown out of it" to a degree, there isn't as much to learn on it because after a couple years of frequenting the sub, a lot of the same questions do become repetitive. But I implore you to help out in the weekly thread then- sometimes you see clever techniques you haven't seen before, sometimes you get challenging questions that you don't know the answer to. Watch to see what one of the more experienced members replies with, or call out someone if their info's BS (respectfully!)

It's really fulfilling to give worthwhile/meaningful advice to beginners, especially when they're legitimately interested in going "all the way". Even still, not everyone's going to follow through, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try. There's hundreds of thousands of people in the sub, lots of foot traffic, and you have the potential to make a huge difference in hopefully converting more people to practicing bonsai "properly". The more people practicing, the better, because it means more beautiful trees!

I don't have any problem with the beginners thread, IT IS the place for people to post anything they want. But, in my opinion, i still think that as enthusiastic as they get, it shouldn't get an own post just to show their little twig, especially this type of posts are more than half the content of the subreddit. That aside, i don't think people should be chastised or offended.

Maybe when i have some time i will try to go to the beginners thread and answer some questions with my limited knowledge... but i still think, as you said, that i've "grown out of it".

 

[Lorax7]

Wow, So the message is "don't EVER post on Reddit." I can barely stand some of the idiots on this forum. much less a million more.

That’s exactly the conclusion that I arrived at. Deleted my account and haven’t regretted it for a moment.

 

[scottschecter]

Hey @BillsBayou , you and I have spoken before on the sub, I really enjoy your content and comments. I spent a few hours repotting trees with Evan who earlier this year visited us here and travelled from your part of the world. I have a lot of respect for you. I am sad that you've decided to criticize the sub in this way, as a sarcastic list.

I don't know which other mod you're referring to regarding the ficus, I can't speak for them, but I really wish you didn't perpetuate this equally nasty habit of shitting on other forums. A tiny handful of volunteers with day jobs and families can't realistically wrangle a minimum of 260,000 people who say whatever they want and often operate in emergent brigades and mobs which are often composed entirely of beginners or bonsai-unaware people just raging about tree torture or anti-yamadori sentiment or upvoting whatever looks cute without knowing whether it's bonsai or not. We are all in the same boat, really. I don't envy the jobs of the mods on bnut, but the difference on reddit is that we're many many many times larger and sometimes have to deal with some really unhinged people whether we want to or not, because we if we don't we get a flood of complaints in the modqueue.

You may see what seems like an unfair ban from a reasonable sounding person which was "made on bonsai grounds". But bans are not made on bonsai grounds. 99% of the time, bans are made on the grounds that someone has started to get into vicious fights with people. Perhaps you see a couple reasonable comments, but that is all you see after the post-fight cleanup where we've had to delete someone resorting to names or racism or whatever. The mods meanwhile will see dozens of hidden comments in flamewars and fights -- we get floods of reports on these comments in real time as they happen.

If you see a properly unfair ban, I am actually very interested in seeing that, because I feel like I completely share your sensibilities about this, and I'd argue at least that @jeremy_norbury does too . You could ping me about that, or you could ping @jeremy_norbury , and I promise I'm interested in looking at that in a thoughtful and fair way. We're regular-ass people with full time day jobs and families -- you, me and Jeremy all know common people / artists / teachers / growers in the real world. We're not faceless basement-dweller randos cackling with glee as we finger-flick yet another dipshit off the sub for trivial reasons like "glued on rocks" or "we don't like your bonsai" or "get that stupid ginseng outta here" or "your definition of the word bonsai isn't correct". That is not how any of it works. If you think it does, all I can say is that the sub you imagine in your head isn't the one I'm trying to contribute to and build.

This is sometimes very frustrating and challenging because I actually get about 100X more direct and indirect comments that our moderation isn't strict enough and that the content/experience is TOO friendly, TOO beginner, TOO welcoming, TOO accepting of what Bonsai people consider "bonsai". Imagine for a moment bnut had traffic in the millions per week, that 260,000 people are active subs on that hypothetical bnut, and that it's all one single giant superforum, not a dozen subforums. What can you reasonably expect? How are you going to herd that many cats? How are you going to account for people who are trolling the sub for sport, day and night? If you were one of our mods @BillsBayou , (hey, you seem passionate about this, are you interested in helping? Serious question), would you let every single pointless fight over word semantics rage uncontrolled a dozen times a month, allowing the sentiment to build up that your sub sucks and that it freely allows assholes rule the day?

Do we listen to voices like @trigo and @Srt8madness and put up a rule "no sticks in pots or you get banned!" and then get floods of appeals in the modqueue? (I wish! I'm tired of mallsai and indoor junipers too). Do we listen to folks like yourself who think the sub is too ban happy and just let everything go, but still get a flood of daily flaggings in the modqueue, because people are upset that angry antisocial people are overrunning the subreddit, beating up on noobs? (I wish for this too. No unfair bans, ever. Every argument settled down and made whole in the end). Can I convince you that in the balance between those two things, given what Reddit is and what it can never become, that we currently arrive at what is possible, but not ideal, because that'd take a big staff of people, restructuring of how reddit works, or else a big stick wielded too capriciously? And that we're actually trying to improve in whatever way we can?

If y'all don't like what you see on the sub but still visit it often anyway, all I can say is that you should try to do what I did and contribute. Help lead the way with a positive friendly approach while modelling highly civil, mature, unflappable, unpetty behavior.

This bnut post didn't lean that way today, @BillsBayou , and made me feel a bit deflated after what I thought was some progress over the last couple years. But in spite of the pile-on, I hope you and others change your minds and help us gently nudge the unconstrained herd of cats in a better direction, even knowing that it is a very difficult task, even knowing that we're going to get crapped on by trolls or people who want to fight anyone that claims black pine can't grow indoors... Because for better or worse, that sub is probably numbers-wise the planet's biggest firehose where a major portion of bonsai-curious people who speak English eventually end up. PHP-powered forums are invisible to a huge portion of the planet and always will be. The big stage is messy but you can reach a lot of people if your passion is to help and spread knowledge. Be the change you want to see. And ping me when you see unfairness. I am 100% interested in that.

You have the patience of a saint good sir.

As a beginner I have learned much from /r/Bonsai just as I have from this site. Especially the weekly beginner thread where @MaciekA and @jeremy_norbury patiently answer beginner questions tirelessly with wisdom and experience. One can learn a lot reading those thread if inclined to do so. Any place on the internet such bonsai wisdom is freely shared should be celebrated.

So thank you @MaciekA, @jeremy_norbury, @Bonsai Nut, and others.

 

[MaciekA]

While i don't know anything about managing a subreddit and a moderators job, i do understand your point of view... I don't have a solution to give you, but i still think that the current subreddit will have a tendency of keeping away more experienced people that are flooded with those posts. Only those that truly want to help beginners will stay there and have the patience to answer them, im just not one of those people... But good luck there! without a doubt it's still an entry way for people to discuss bonsai on the internet and i think those that really take it seriously will eventualy end here or other more "focused" forums.

I've come around to a similar viewpoint as this. It's a huge springboard, and it has a bunch of warts, but if we have a decent-sized group of good people hovering around that springboard, we can give some good information and make a small dent in the trajectory of the firehose.

 

[Alaskanrocket]

Good news for me then, out of the 3 posts on there ive tried to make they've all been immediately taken down for some weird broken rule. I gave up on that sub.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

@BillsBayou , kudos to you for even figuring out how to post on reddit, worthless site

 

[bonsaichile]

Hey @BillsBayou , you and I have spoken before on the sub, I really enjoy your content and comments. I spent a few hours repotting trees with Evan who earlier this year visited us here and travelled from your part of the world. I have a lot of respect for you. I am sad that you've decided to criticize the sub in this way, as a sarcastic list.

I don't know which other mod you're referring to regarding the ficus, I can't speak for them, but I really wish you didn't perpetuate this equally nasty habit of shitting on other forums. A tiny handful of volunteers with day jobs and families can't realistically wrangle a minimum of 260,000 people who say whatever they want and often operate in emergent brigades and mobs which are often composed entirely of beginners or bonsai-unaware people just raging about tree torture or anti-yamadori sentiment or upvoting whatever looks cute without knowing whether it's bonsai or not. We are all in the same boat, really. I don't envy the jobs of the mods on bnut, but the difference on reddit is that we're many many many times larger and sometimes have to deal with some really unhinged people whether we want to or not, because we if we don't we get a flood of complaints in the modqueue.

You may see what seems like an unfair ban from a reasonable sounding person which was "made on bonsai grounds". But bans are not made on bonsai grounds. 99% of the time, bans are made on the grounds that someone has started to get into vicious fights with people. Perhaps you see a couple reasonable comments, but that is all you see after the post-fight cleanup where we've had to delete someone resorting to names or racism or whatever. The mods meanwhile will see dozens of hidden comments in flamewars and fights -- we get floods of reports on these comments in real time as they happen.

If you see a properly unfair ban, I am actually very interested in seeing that, because I feel like I completely share your sensibilities about this, and I'd argue at least that @jeremy_norbury does too . You could ping me about that, or you could ping @jeremy_norbury , and I promise I'm interested in looking at that in a thoughtful and fair way. We're regular-ass people with full time day jobs and families -- you, me and Jeremy all know common people / artists / teachers / growers in the real world. We're not faceless basement-dweller randos cackling with glee as we finger-flick yet another dipshit off the sub for trivial reasons like "glued on rocks" or "we don't like your bonsai" or "get that stupid ginseng outta here" or "your definition of the word bonsai isn't correct". That is not how any of it works. If you think it does, all I can say is that the sub you imagine in your head isn't the one I'm trying to contribute to and build.

This is sometimes very frustrating and challenging because I actually get about 100X more direct and indirect comments that our moderation isn't strict enough and that the content/experience is TOO friendly, TOO beginner, TOO welcoming, TOO accepting of what Bonsai people consider "bonsai". Imagine for a moment bnut had traffic in the millions per week, that 260,000 people are active subs on that hypothetical bnut, and that it's all one single giant superforum, not a dozen subforums. What can you reasonably expect? How are you going to herd that many cats? How are you going to account for people who are trolling the sub for sport, day and night? If you were one of our mods @BillsBayou , (hey, you seem passionate about this, are you interested in helping? Serious question), would you let every single pointless fight over word semantics rage uncontrolled a dozen times a month, allowing the sentiment to build up that your sub sucks and that it freely allows assholes rule the day?

Do we listen to voices like @trigo and @Srt8madness and put up a rule "no sticks in pots or you get banned!" and then get floods of appeals in the modqueue? (I wish! I'm tired of mallsai and indoor junipers too). Do we listen to folks like yourself who think the sub is too ban happy and just let everything go, but still get a flood of daily flaggings in the modqueue, because people are upset that angry antisocial people are overrunning the subreddit, beating up on noobs? (I wish for this too. No unfair bans, ever. Every argument settled down and made whole in the end). Can I convince you that in the balance between those two things, given what Reddit is and what it can never become, that we currently arrive at what is possible, but not ideal, because that'd take a big staff of people, restructuring of how reddit works, or else a big stick wielded too capriciously? And that we're actually trying to improve in whatever way we can?

If y'all don't like what you see on the sub but still visit it often anyway, all I can say is that you should try to do what I did and contribute. Help lead the way with a positive friendly approach while modelling highly civil, mature, unflappable, unpetty behavior.

This bnut post didn't lean that way today, @BillsBayou , and made me feel a bit deflated after what I thought was some progress over the last couple years. But in spite of the pile-on, I hope you and others change your minds and help us gently nudge the unconstrained herd of cats in a better direction, even knowing that it is a very difficult task, even knowing that we're going to get crapped on by trolls or people who want to fight anyone that claims black pine can't grow indoors... Because for better or worse, that sub is probably numbers-wise the planet's biggest firehose where a major portion of bonsai-curious people who speak English eventually end up. PHP-powered forums are invisible to a huge portion of the planet and always will be. The big stage is messy but you can reach a lot of people if your passion is to help and spread knowledge. Be the change you want to see. And ping me when you see unfairness. I am 100% interested in that.

I appreciate your point, but in my experience reddit (in any of its incarnations) is not worth the time and energy used to type your username. I'll just stick to Bnut

 

[BillsBayou]

Apologies for missing the post. Yes, my post was full of snark. I look at /r/Bonsai in the same way I look at the final scenes in "Animal House." The "id" has taken over nearly everyone and Kevin Bacon is the one good moderator screaming "All is well!" while the crowd tramples him flat.

I stand by my words and the intent of my post with respect to /r/Bonsai and most of Reddit.

If I were to begin a discussion titled "How to get beat up on BNut", the answer would be very generic "Be an ass." Same netiquette rules apply at BNut as they do on most of the Internet; "show up, be an ass, get trashed." On Reddit, it's "show up, be a lamb, get led to slaughter."

... I don't know which other mod you're referring to regarding the ficus,

I'm not sure I can forget a thread titled "Fucking woody houseplants". There are ways to encourage bonsai, and there are ways to insult people before they have had the chance to ask a question about their Home Depot purchase.

I can't speak for them, but I really wish you didn't perpetuate this equally nasty habit of shitting on other forums.

My initial post was snark. I'm doing my best in this reply to be respectful and calm. I'm trying not to shit on /r/Bonsai in this reply, but it is difficult and I'm failing. Failing myself and others.

A tiny handful of volunteers with day jobs and families can't realistically wrangle a minimum of 260,000 people who say whatever they want and often operate in emergent brigades and mobs which are often composed entirely of beginners or bonsai-unaware people just raging about tree torture or anti-yamadori sentiment or upvoting whatever looks cute without knowing whether it's bonsai or not. We are all in the same boat, really. I don't envy the jobs of the mods on bnut, but the difference on reddit is that we're many many many times larger and sometimes have to deal with some really unhinged people whether we want to or not, because we if we don't we get a flood of complaints in the modqueue.

The problem with Reddit is the reason BNut is such a fabulous place. Hobbies just seem to work better in a bulletin board format. Reddit is more "Look at what I saw today" or maybe "Here's a monkey. Watch as I throw it into the jackal exhibit." It's not a place for building lasting relationships. It's a place for instant gratification and rapid-fire destruction. /r/Bonsai doesn't offer what most bonsai artists need. It's a news feed trying to be a bulletin board.

Moderating any popular sub on Reddit must be a nightmare.

...You may see what seems like an unfair ban from a reasonable sounding person which was "made on bonsai grounds"....

Adam Lavigne was banned from /r/Bonsai because of a vicious rumor being spread by a former friend of his OUTSIDE OF REDDIT. The entire thing amounted to nothing. The whole affair left me thinking less about /r/Bonsai and the mods who run it.

By the way, Adam Lavigne knows how to develop "fucking woody houseplants" into bonsai without insulting people with obscenities.

... (hey, you seem passionate about this, are you interested in helping? Serious question) ...

Herding cats.

I don't think /r/Bonsai can be fixed because of Reddit's base structure.

... Can I convince you that in the balance between those two things, given what Reddit is and what it can never become, that we currently arrive at what is possible, but not ideal, because that'd take a big staff of people, restructuring of how reddit works, or else a big stick wielded too capriciously? And that we're actually trying to improve in whatever way we can?

I want to eat my words. I really do. If there is a way to fix /r/Bonsai under Reddit's current structure, I don't see it.

If y'all don't like what you see on the sub but still visit it often anyway, all I can say is that you should try to do what I did and contribute. Help lead the way with a positive friendly approach while modelling highly civil, mature, unflappable, unpetty behavior.

This bnut post didn't lean that way today, @BillsBayou , and made me feel a bit deflated after what I thought was some progress over the last couple years. But in spite of the pile-on, I hope you and others change your minds and help us gently nudge the unconstrained herd of cats in a better direction, even knowing that it is a very difficult task, even knowing that we're going to get crapped on by trolls or people who want to fight anyone that claims black pine can't grow indoors... Because for better or worse, that sub is probably numbers-wise the planet's biggest firehose where a major portion of bonsai-curious people who speak English eventually end up. PHP-powered forums are invisible to a huge portion of the planet and always will be. The big stage is messy but you can reach a lot of people if your passion is to help and spread knowledge. Be the change you want to see. And ping me when you see unfairness. I am 100% interested in that.

Very well said. Who knows? Maybe it can be reshaped into something more useful and less harmful.

 

[yashu]

I used to post on that sub but I think the only useful feedback I ever really got was from @jeremy_norbury and a couple others. Not much discussion. Newbs come in and soon find there are other sources of information and advice (like here) without the negativity. Also there seems to be a whole lot of simply false information handed out by “experts”.

 

[Alaskanrocket]

I've come around to a similar viewpoint as this. It's a huge springboard, and it has a bunch of warts, but if we have a decent-sized group of good people hovering around that springboard, we can give some good information and make a small dent in the trajectory of the firehose.

I do not envy you for trying to manage what would seem to be weeding through an endless amount of junk and complaints, topped off with input from some users that are more harmful than helpful.

I see this more as a virus that has infected the whole of the internet in which uneducated "experts" giving bad advice take offense when someone disagrees. One thing Ive noticed with these types of contributor's is they portray such a level of confidence they gain a following of people who will not only back these people up when questioned but also spread their miss-information. 99% of the time these "experts" are only on there to criticize others in an attempt to boost there own ego's while disguising their lack of knowledge . They end up getting away with it for so long because anyone who has any knowledge on the subject wont waste their time arguing with someone who is so seemingly delusional. I can't say this is something I've personally witnessed on the Bonsai sub but I have seen it in an array of other topics on other forums and sub-reddit's. Long story short is its the Mods, the pages, and the hobbies that suffer the most.

Anyways, Thanks for your effort on there, its undoubtedly an uphill battle that most people wont even begin to ascend, myself included.