How to lower water pH...cost effectively?

[Poink88]

I am pasting a quote from the article I posted a link to about dissolved 02 in water that could lead one to believe that water standing in peat moss might contain a bunch of nasty critters.


Too little dissolved oxygen creates a compounded negative effect—as the beneficial organisms die out because of the lack of dissolved oxygen, the ideal conditions for anaerobic pathogenic organisms are also created. Almost every pathogenic disease related to the plant’s rhizosphere is anaerobic

Again...your link IS for HYDROPONICS...we are not doing that in bonsai (at least I am not).

 

[wireme]

OK the the article is for hydroponics. Nevertheless the section I pasted here is directly applicable to the situation a person would create by having a standing barrel of water mixed with organics.

If you're going to make a brew full of root pathogens does it matter whether or not you pour it into a hydro set up or a bonsai tree?

Also the article is full of statements like this
"oxygen content in your hydroponic system or grow medium exponentially decreases"

Note the hydroponic or grow medium?

Modern substrate, heavy watering, heavy feeding is not all that dissimilar to many hydroponic systems.

 

[wireme]

BTW studies have shown that a mix of standing water and organics (also know as un aerated compost tea) is highest in root pathogens around the 48hr mark.

After that bacteria and others take over and it becomes more safe to use.

 

[Poink88]

OK the the article is for hydroponics. Nevertheless the section I pasted here is directly applicable to the situation a person would create by having a standing barrel of water mixed with organics.

If you're going to make a brew full of root pathogens does it matter whether or not you pour it into a hydro set up or a bonsai tree?

Also the article is full of statements like this
"oxygen content in your hydroponic system or grow medium exponentially decreases"

Note the hydroponic or grow medium?

Modern substrate, heavy watering, heavy feeding is not all that dissimilar to many hydroponic systems.

Yes note the grow medium? That water IS the grow medium for hydroponics...it is NOT in bonsai. Once you water the bonsai medium (SOIL)...that water gets aerated....killing the anaerobic pathogens. Please do not keep on insisting on it...totally different growth environment and requirement.

Besides, I already said I won't do that since it involves too much work and I have no space for it.

Thank you.

 

[wireme]

The growing medium the author is refering to is often chunks of coconut fiber, lava rock or sand, often perlite. Same stuff bonsai growers use. Water is repeatedly flushed and drained in many systems.

The pathogens don't just die by being exposed to aeration, they will usually get outcompeted or consumed by the beneficial organisms present in an aerobic enviorment such as modern bonsai soil. Still no need to create a brewfull and pour it on your tree.

It seemed like you might have been considering doing this down the road, or anyways others may have. So I thought I'd mention it.

In my opinion modern bonsai culture falls somewhere in between nursery productions and hydroponics in terms of growth conditions and environment. I think we can learn a lot from both sources.

 

[milehigh_7]

Our water is undrinkable it is so hard. Not sure of the number but chock full of calcium and magnesium and a few other goodies. White vinegar is cheap and effective and I have used it. However the humic acid that I use will most definitely drop it. I can post again what I use but should you decide on it you will need to be careful with your boxwoods and such however your oaks will love you for it.

 

[cmeg1]

I would personally feel safer with the 'earthjuice' products and see how far the crystals actually go with all your trees.Good luck!

 

[Poink88]

...the humic acid that I use will most definitely drop it. I can post again what I use but should you decide on it you will need to be careful with your boxwoods and such however your oaks will love you for it.

Thanks. You mean my solitary small oak? LOL

I think the hollies, azalea, & pines will benefit too.

 

[daygan]

Again...your link IS for HYDROPONICS...we are not doing that in bonsai (at least I am not).

Well, if you look into a few of the different forms that hydroponics takes, you'll find that this statement is not always true. Look into Passive Hydroponics and Ebb and Flow. Of particular note is the media frequently used here:

Many media are available for passive hydroponics, but the most common are expanded clay pellets, coconut husk chips, perlite, vermiculite, diatomite, charcoal, and rockwool. These are frequently used in combination.

Regardless of this interesting side discussion, the article has interesting information about plant needs that are stated to be universally true and not confined only to the structure of hydroponic practices. It doesn't make sense to disregard universally applicable information simply because the audience addressed in the article in which it is presented is a hyroponics-practicing audience and not a bonsai-practicing audience. The information that you can take away from this article here is that pathogenic organisms thrive in water that has low oxygen levels, regardless of whether the water is being used in a hydoponic system or not.

 

[Poink88]

True but again I am not planning on doing it (how many times do I have to repeat that). IF it is for others who might, then go ahead with the discussion.

If that is a concern then aerate that thing. There are lots of cheap air pump used in aquariums (I even find them free on Craigslist).

I worked a bit on wastewater plant and know how anaerobic bacteria works...they do not thrive as easily as some make you believe and they can be easily killed if you want. That is why a lot of chemicals are being discouraged from being flushed because a little (even after diluted by millions of gallons) can wreck havoc in their digestion chambers. BUT that is not the topic I am interested on.

Thank you.

 

[daygan]

True but again I am not planning on doing it (how many times do I have to repeat that). IF it is for others who might, then go ahead with the discussion.

Well, yes, true enough. Sorry to drag that topic out. I know this is your thread and you were specifically asking about lowering ph.. about which, *sigh*, I unfortunately don't have much to say... Now I should go do some research and see if I have anything constructive to add to your thread

 

[GrimLore]

A small Earth type Pool filter would be an easy way to trap the water and treat it in the filtration stage...

 

[Frojo]

Dario, I had exactly the same problem a you.
Started using vinegar to lower the pH but it was way to costly. Now using battery acid, works great for me and you use a LOT less of it.
Do you remember this and this thread on the Bonsai Site?
Paul (63pmp) really helped me a lot.

 

[davetree]

Again I don't know why anyone would use battery acid and protective eyewear when there are inexpensive products that work well that are already on the market. PH down will treat thousands of gallons of water at less than $10.

 

[Frojo]

Because it's cheaper and I can find it easily locally, good enough reason for me.
Also adds sulfate anions that the tree can actually use.
I don't know how much pH Down you can get for $10 but I seriously doubt it will get far with my water and no way will you get 1000s of gallons of hard water down from 9 to below 6.

 

[Poink88]

Dario, I had exactly the same problem a you.
Started using vinegar to lower the pH but it was way to costly. Now using battery acid, works great for me and you use a LOT less of it.
Do you remember this and this thread on the Bonsai Site?
Paul (63pmp) really helped me a lot.

I read that but forgot where . Thanks! I haven't been there for a while...maybe time to re-visit the site/forum.

I consulted my brother (a chemist) and he recommended either phosphoric acid or sulfuric acid for cheap solution but insisted that I will need a holding tank to let it properly neutralize. Also warned me of the by-products and to check if it will need to be cleaned (or not depending on the trees) before watering. He also mentioned on-line treatment thru series of cation and anion exchangers which is very costly. Then the mid cost filtration like reverse osmosis.

I decided to watch the trees for now and implement change only when needed.

I appreciate all your help guys!

 

[davetree]

You may doubt it but it sounds like you have never used it. Many people post here about what they have read or what they have heard. I have used pH Down for 15 years and yes one ten dollar box will treat several thousand gallons of water. How do know this ? Because I have done it.

 

[davetree]

pH Down is sulfuric acid and ammonium phosphate.

 

[Poink88]

pH Down is sulfuric acid and ammonium phosphate.

I looked it online and I thought it was (diluted) Phosphoric acid.

 

[davetree]

Not the box I have but they may have changed the formula.