If you are referring to post #2 then it is still there.... I don't think Greg would delete a partial post for recommending a product....just not his MO. Heck, I have seen waaaayyyy worse go untouched...
Hydroton instead of Akadama
- Thread starter DaveV
- Start date
If you are referring to post #2 then it is still there.... I don't think Greg would delete a partial post for recommending a product....just not his MO. Heck, I have seen waaaayyyy worse go untouched...
Specialkayme
Mame
Sorry for being massively late on this thread.
Reading all the responses has given me some great insight, but not necessarily answers to the original post.
Hydroton is probably inferior to Akadama, but by how much? Is it still not worth putting into your mix? The cost of Hydroton might be alot, but is it as much as Akadama?
I used to do hydroponics. I got out about a year and a half ago though. It started getting a little expensive with all the nutrients. You had a 50 gallon reservoir that cost $10-20 to put nutrients into. Then you had to replace the water in the reservoir once a week. Then there was the lights, media, pests, scrubbing (everytime you changed the water), and it all became too much for me. $1,000 a year for hydroponic tomatoes, basil, and rosemary . . . I'd rather just put them in the ground and have fresh fruit for a few months a year then buy from a good farmer's market.
But as a result I have a bag of the Hydroton stuff sitting around. What if the Hydroton was "free"? Would you use it instead of akadama then?
I don't have akadama, but I have plenty of hydroton. I'm thinking about mixing it with some permatill (and maybe just a little bit of peat moss). Mainly because I can't find lava rocks or turface locally, and I'd love some akadama, but at those prices I'll have to wait till I'm further "in the game." Thoughts on the mix? I'm very new, so looking for some pointers . . .
Reading all the responses has given me some great insight, but not necessarily answers to the original post.
Hydroton is probably inferior to Akadama, but by how much? Is it still not worth putting into your mix? The cost of Hydroton might be alot, but is it as much as Akadama?
I used to do hydroponics. I got out about a year and a half ago though. It started getting a little expensive with all the nutrients. You had a 50 gallon reservoir that cost $10-20 to put nutrients into. Then you had to replace the water in the reservoir once a week. Then there was the lights, media, pests, scrubbing (everytime you changed the water), and it all became too much for me. $1,000 a year for hydroponic tomatoes, basil, and rosemary . . . I'd rather just put them in the ground and have fresh fruit for a few months a year then buy from a good farmer's market.
But as a result I have a bag of the Hydroton stuff sitting around. What if the Hydroton was "free"? Would you use it instead of akadama then?
I don't have akadama, but I have plenty of hydroton. I'm thinking about mixing it with some permatill (and maybe just a little bit of peat moss). Mainly because I can't find lava rocks or turface locally, and I'd love some akadama, but at those prices I'll have to wait till I'm further "in the game." Thoughts on the mix? I'm very new, so looking for some pointers . . .
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I'd skip this stuff. I've seen it used, but not very often and not by people that have grown bonsai for more than a few years. It's not really substantial enough for use with trees. Put it together with permatil and you will have a bucket of rocks, not bonsai soil...the peat moss will wash out in a few days or weeks...
Also, I wouldn't really look for Akadama at this point. It's extremely expensive and you have to know what you're buying. There is more than one kind of Akadama out there. Some breaks down pretty quickly and can turn to mush. Even many long time bonsaiists don't use it. I know I don't. It's great stuff, but expensive (try $40 for 15 lbs or so) and the "right" kind is not easy to come by.
You will get many people who swear by it and use it exclusively though...
Also, I wouldn't really look for Akadama at this point. It's extremely expensive and you have to know what you're buying. There is more than one kind of Akadama out there. Some breaks down pretty quickly and can turn to mush. Even many long time bonsaiists don't use it. I know I don't. It's great stuff, but expensive (try $40 for 15 lbs or so) and the "right" kind is not easy to come by.
You will get many people who swear by it and use it exclusively though...
It always amuses me when I read comments regarding akadama being so fantastic.
The question to ask is "What did we do before akadama?"
The answer is we used grit, pumice and composted materials etc.
In fact we used materials from our own countries, NOT red clay transported thousands of miles around the world.
Recently in Europe, a visiting Japanese master asked,"Why are you using akadama it is Japanese soil not European?"
It is a wonderful business opportunity for Japanese clay sellers, and possibly solves landfill problems
For over 25 years my trees have been growing without the use of akadama, successfully.
The question to ask is "What did we do before akadama?"
The answer is we used grit, pumice and composted materials etc.
In fact we used materials from our own countries, NOT red clay transported thousands of miles around the world.
Recently in Europe, a visiting Japanese master asked,"Why are you using akadama it is Japanese soil not European?"
It is a wonderful business opportunity for Japanese clay sellers, and possibly solves landfill problems
For over 25 years my trees have been growing without the use of akadama, successfully.
Good for you to find an alternative, I'm still trying to find a source of akadama that fits my budget though. Why? Because Boon said so and I don't like to take advice from people that make claims without trees to back them up. Show us your 25 year old trees w/o akadama and you may convert me. Consider that an invitation, not an ill mannered challenge.
If you have any nice trees, why not the best soil, why would you want to save a couple of bucks on soil when you are trying to fight nature anyway by puting a tree in a pot. Some people want to recreate the wheel. Use what the pro's use, because they are working with bonsai that cost in the thousands. I never heard any bonsai master recommend the products that have been mentioned in this thread. When Kimura starts using it to save a buck, I'll buy some.
Harry
Harry
Specialkayme
Mame
Your points are well taken.
However, when I'm dealing with bonsai that cost in the thousands, I don't think I would be interested to save $30 on soil. When I'm dealing with bonsai in the double digits, it's hard to swallow the price.
That being said, nearly all the bonsai in the thousands were once of the same quality as the bonsai in the hundreds. They probably didn't get that way by skipping corners . . .
Just exploring options.
However, when I'm dealing with bonsai that cost in the thousands, I don't think I would be interested to save $30 on soil. When I'm dealing with bonsai in the double digits, it's hard to swallow the price.
That being said, nearly all the bonsai in the thousands were once of the same quality as the bonsai in the hundreds. They probably didn't get that way by skipping corners . . .
Just exploring options.
Give your trees the best chance you can. Soil is the last thing I would skimp on.
Harry
Specialkayme
Mame
Fair enough.
I haven't been able to find ANY of the recommended materials locally. I was hoping to be able to substitute one or two things, but no lava, pumice, or akadama. Looks like I'm having it shipped.
Since I have so few bonsai, it would probably be better for me to order it pre-mixed at this point. No sense in paying for 3x shipping when I only have a handful of plants. Is there an akadama heavy mix that you know is sold that you would recommend?
I haven't been able to find ANY of the recommended materials locally. I was hoping to be able to substitute one or two things, but no lava, pumice, or akadama. Looks like I'm having it shipped.
Since I have so few bonsai, it would probably be better for me to order it pre-mixed at this point. No sense in paying for 3x shipping when I only have a handful of plants. Is there an akadama heavy mix that you know is sold that you would recommend?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"Is there an akadama heavy mix that you know is sold that you would recommend?"
There is no such animal commercially. Anyway, YOU DO NOT NEED AKADAMA at this point
I have been growing bonsai for more than 20 years. I've used the stuff on occasion. It's good, but it is not a miracle product AND it is expensive--you will be paying more money for the dirt your tree is in than your tree is worth...
Even after you've been doing this for a while, you will find that Akadama is mostly a luxury and a bragging point for some...I'm neither "for it" or "against it" really. I have just found I can do more than fine without it and I have money to buy groceries. I can make 30 gallons of perfectly fine bonsai soil for what I would pay for five gallons of Akadama.
Grog, do a search on "live oak" and you will probably come up with my tree. It's been growing in haydite/turface/composted pine bark for 25 years--since it was dug out of Texas rangeland. It, and my other 25 or so trees, have been doing pretty well over the last 20 years mostly without Akadama. There is no shame in not using it...
There is no such animal commercially. Anyway, YOU DO NOT NEED AKADAMA at this point
I have been growing bonsai for more than 20 years. I've used the stuff on occasion. It's good, but it is not a miracle product AND it is expensive--you will be paying more money for the dirt your tree is in than your tree is worth...
Even after you've been doing this for a while, you will find that Akadama is mostly a luxury and a bragging point for some
...I'm neither "for it" or "against it" really. I have just found I can do more than fine without it and I have money to buy groceries. I can make 30 gallons of perfectly fine bonsai soil for what I would pay for five gallons of Akadama.Grog, do a search on "live oak" and you will probably come up with my tree. It's been growing in haydite/turface/composted pine bark for 25 years--since it was dug out of Texas rangeland. It, and my other 25 or so trees, have been doing pretty well over the last 20 years mostly without Akadama. There is no shame in not using it...
Specialkayme
Mame
I hear you rockm. I know it isn't a necessity. But I'm not able to find turface or lava rocks locally. The closest pumice mix (Dry Stall) is about 30 miles away. Im not saying that's far, but at that point it would almost cost me as much in gas to go get it as it would to get it shipped here. So basically, I have to order whatever I'm going to use (although I will continue to scour the area).
If I'm going to have to order all components (or 90% of them), I can't afford to pay shipping on all components. It would be more cost effective to purchase a mix.
If I'm going to purchase a premade mix, why would I not look for one that's heavy on (or at least comprised of) akadama?
Soil appears to be the most important ingredient, and the something I'm lacking (oh yeah, and knowledge and experience)
If I'm going to have to order all components (or 90% of them), I can't afford to pay shipping on all components. It would be more cost effective to purchase a mix.
If I'm going to purchase a premade mix, why would I not look for one that's heavy on (or at least comprised of) akadama?
Soil appears to be the most important ingredient, and the something I'm lacking (oh yeah, and knowledge and experience
)tom tynan
Mame
Dave: I have purchased a few bags of the hydroton rocks - if you mix it with some medium to fine horticultural charcoal - it works very well. That said - I still use lava, pumice, akadama mix [Boon Mix] for my better trees - Spruce, RMJ and Ponderosa Pines. The hydroton is great when you have a tree that you want to develop further - but not put back in the ground, ie. grow it out in a big tub or in a wooden box. These '"trees in development" to me - do not warrant the expensive pumice, lava and akadama. The cost for these products is not the issue - it is the shipping and how you get them based on where you live in the US. In closing yes - I think it is a good product and I like to keep a few bags around for different projects. When you pull a tree out of a big plastic tub that is filled with the hyrdroton - you will be amazed at the mass of roots...good luck....Tom
Dav4
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I recently purchased a product by Espoma called Soil Perfector at a landscape nursery. It's a high fired, expanded slate that, grossly, looks alot like pumice to me. A bit pricey at $14m for a 27# bag, but I wanted to try it. For the record, my standard mix is equal parts lava, turface, and grit.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"If I'm going to purchase a premade mix, why would I not look for one that's heavy on (or at least comprised of) akadama?"
Because you don't NEED it and will be paying a premium for it...
It's like hi-test gas. It's not necessary for 99 percent of the cars out there, but people use it because they think it works better. It may, but not for most cars.
And for what it's worth, cutting akadama is also like watering down whisky or cutting cocaine The less concentration, the less effective it is...Unless you're using a mix that is something like 70-80 percent akadama and in that case, why bother cutting it up?
Because you don't NEED it and will be paying a premium for it...
It's like hi-test gas. It's not necessary for 99 percent of the cars out there, but people use it because they think it works better. It may, but not for most cars.
And for what it's worth, cutting akadama is also like watering down whisky or cutting cocaine
The less concentration, the less effective it is...Unless you're using a mix that is something like 70-80 percent akadama and in that case, why bother cutting it up?Specialkayme
Mame
I wouldn't know much about cutting cocaine . . . lol.
Quick side story: If you aren't interested in my unrelated topic, skip to the smiley face. I also keep bees (my other massively time consuming hobby). In beekeeping, sometimes its necessary to feed the bees, rather than letting them feed themselves. In those cases, you can mix up a pollen patty or a pollen substitute patty (protein rich substance). I was attempting to make a protein rich substance, and I read an article about the bees use of a compound called Inositol, sold at GNC. So I stopped in to ask for some. They kept it under lock down, behind the front counter, and gave me some very weird looks when I asked for it. I didn't really understand why, until I went home and googled it. Apparently it's used as a cutting agent in cocaine, in addition to it's "brain food" qualities. Now the local GNC thinks I deal drugs. Great.
Thanks for dealing with that.
I appreciate your help rockm, and it's not that I'm trying to argue with you (by any means). I'm just trying to fully understand what I'm doing, while finding the most economical and beneficial result possible.
I guess what I was trying to say, was that if I can get a mixture of soil that includes akadama, and one that doesn't contain it, and they are roughly the same price, shouldn't I go for the one that includes it? If you could get low grade fuel for $3 a gallon, and high grade fuel for $5 a gallon, if you found a 75-25% mixture of low-grade to high-grade fuel being sold for $3 or even $3.50 a gallon, wouldn't it be worth it? I'm just thinking out loud here.
Quick side story: If you aren't interested in my unrelated topic, skip to the smiley face. I also keep bees (my other massively time consuming hobby). In beekeeping, sometimes its necessary to feed the bees, rather than letting them feed themselves. In those cases, you can mix up a pollen patty or a pollen substitute patty (protein rich substance). I was attempting to make a protein rich substance, and I read an article about the bees use of a compound called Inositol, sold at GNC. So I stopped in to ask for some. They kept it under lock down, behind the front counter, and gave me some very weird looks when I asked for it. I didn't really understand why, until I went home and googled it. Apparently it's used as a cutting agent in cocaine, in addition to it's "brain food" qualities. Now the local GNC thinks I deal drugs. Great.
Thanks for dealing with that.I appreciate your help rockm, and it's not that I'm trying to argue with you (by any means). I'm just trying to fully understand what I'm doing, while finding the most economical and beneficial result possible.
I guess what I was trying to say, was that if I can get a mixture of soil that includes akadama, and one that doesn't contain it, and they are roughly the same price, shouldn't I go for the one that includes it? If you could get low grade fuel for $3 a gallon, and high grade fuel for $5 a gallon, if you found a 75-25% mixture of low-grade to high-grade fuel being sold for $3 or even $3.50 a gallon, wouldn't it be worth it? I'm just thinking out loud here.
On a vaguely interesting side note to akadama, while looking around for a source I ran across a link explaining the uses of akadama for people who raise shrimp as a hobby. Appparently it buffers the water to maintain whatever ph and kh is best for them. No luck using it as an alternate source as they recommend finding bonsai suppliers to get their akadama. We've gone mainstream people!
You can buy 5 little junipers for 10 bucks each at Home Depot. Now whip up a bunch of soil recipes from different materials recommended here, but pot one in a premixed small bag on Akadama, pumice and lava rock. Treat them all the same and come back here with your results in three years. I will pay for your experment if the one in the soil I suggested doesn't out perform the other four,deal.
Harry
Harry
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"You can buy 5 little junipers for 10 bucks each at Home Depot. Now whip up a bunch of soil recipes from different materials recommended here, but pot one in a premixed small bag on Akadama, pumice and lava rock. Treat them all the same and come back here with your results in three years. I will pay for your experment if the one in the soil I suggested doesn't out perform the other four,deal."
But that's not really the point. No one disputes Akadama can make trees perform better. BUT, why put $15 worth of soil in a $10 tree?
But that's not really the point. No one disputes Akadama can make trees perform better. BUT, why put $15 worth of soil in a $10 tree?
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