Ilex deadwood?

[berobinson82]

Hi.

I have an ilex vomitoria that has a few branches that don't work with the design so I was going to turn them into nice jins. Someone mentioned in passing that you can not dead wood an ilex. Does anyone know if this is true?

Thank you,

-B

 

[jk_lewis]

Don't ever say you "cannot" do something to a bonsai. It's your tree.

The issue is whether it would look natural, and how long the deadwood would last.

You seldom see deadwood such as a jin on a deciduous or broad-leaf evergreen tree -- or at least you don't see it for long. The wood isn't as long lasting as is the wood of most conifers.

If you do it, please don't bleach with lime sulfur. Deciduous wood doesn't look that way. Let it age naturally.

 

[rockm]

Like Jim said, There's "cannot" artistically and there's "cannot" horticulturally. Artistically, do what you want and looks good to you.

Horticulturally, the wood of holly trees isn't all that durable. It rots and it rots especially fast in warm humid climates like Central Virginia. The jin and shari you make on a holly now will not last anywhere near as long as a similar jin on a resinous pine, or even an oak.

So, yeah, you can use deadwood on species like this, but it will last only a few years, just like the hollies in the woods around here. I've not seen an American holly with jins, only dead wood. Jins are usually apparent on alpine species that get high light and high winds. Lowland frest species tend to die back on trunks and lower branches. There are "staghorn" oaks with jins, but they're the marks of tall, old trees. You could go for an image along those lines, but pointy jins at the ends of branches would probably look a little "off" on a broadleafed evergreen.

 

[Roberts]

This is some branch and trunk carving on a very old Illex Shilling. It was owned by a gentleman in the Florida Keys. I acquired it and had it for about 12 years ( up in Iowa ) a couple years ago I traded it for some Trident Maples that are more Iowa friendly, and it is now back residing in Florida. Just saw it a few weeks ago and the jin and shari still looking good.
I believe the jin and shari were done about 25+ years ago. I did use lime sulfur on the deadwood. Using some India ink to tone it down.

Robert

 

[JudyB]

You could also use a wood hardener if you don't like the white look of lime sulfur.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I've not seen an American holly with jins, only dead wood. Jins are usually apparent on alpine species that get high light and high winds. Lowland frest species tend to die back on trunks and lower branches. There are "staghorn" oaks with jins, but they're the marks of tall, old trees. You could go for an image along those lines, but pointy jins at the ends of branches would probably look a little "off" on a broadleafed evergreen.

what rockm said

 

[berobinson82]

This is all excellent information. I'm going to maintain a "there is not cannot" attitude. Thank you for sharing your wisdom rockm and JKL. Robert that holly has a gnarly trunk! I'll begin researching using indian ink. Judy, wood hardener instead of lime sulfur. That's an interesting idea that I've not yet heard of.

Always a pleasure to hear from this community. I love the open flow of information and experiences.

 

[edprocoat]

You can preserve the wood on deciduous trees with Minwax stains, they water seal and harden it keeping it from rotting away. Look up the Minwax.com site and check out the colors. They have pickled oak and weathered oak that looks a lot like the color of deadwood you see on trees in nature, or you could go with natural.

ed

 

[rockm]

FWIW, wood hardener is not really the same as lime sulphur. If you're not careful using the hardener, it will make wood look like plastic. Just like using too much lime sulphur can make wood look unnusual.

Lime sulphur is a fungicide, wood hardener is resin suspended in solution. LS kills bad stuff and physically bleaches the wood. Wood hardener penetrates the wood and leaves behind the plastic resin in wood fibers as it dries. Two things to keep in mind in using either.

If you don't like the LS's whitening effect, you can add india ink or more effectively, acrylic paints--greys, dark greens etc. Those can be watered down so they can be used as a color "wash" in the LS. I think they might also be used with the wood hardener, but I've never done that.

 

[JudyB]

Thanks rockm for the explanation of the differences between the two. I learn something new every day here.

So with easily rotting wood, which would be the better treatment to use? Would the resin help it hold up longer? Or would the fungicide qualities be a better option?

 

[rockm]

Although there are pluses and minuses for both, I err on the side of Lime sulphur. It is meant to kill fungus and other stuff. In its everyday use, wood hardener is used to stabilize rotted wood so it can be worked by carpenters--in other words, it's not meant to kill or preserve anything.

In my experience, wood hardener can lead to false expectations. I've had it create a "shell" of sort on some deadwood that looks fine--from the front. Rot wasn't stopped UNDERNEATH the layer of wood that the hardener reached, however. The plastic shell helped things along underneath by preventing air and any other wood treatment from reaching through. LS can also do this to some extent, but since it is a toxin to mold and rot that can remain active, it provides some protection. It also allows some air exchange through the wood that can slow rot a bit.

All said and done, neither is really going to preserve deadwood permanently, or make it last as long as more resinous conifer deadwood in the South or middle Atlantic states. Deadwood rots in these parts.

 

[berobinson82]

Would it makes sense then to treat the wood with slightly weaker LS and then follow it up a week later with wood hardener? In my imagination, that would kill the fungi and then harden the dead wood off and if you used a colored variety, it would lessen the bleach effect.

Just spit-balling here.

 

[rockm]

Is the wood soft and in need of firming up? If not, I'd lay off the hardener. It's not needed on sound wood and could actually cause rot as water seeps in behind it...

 

[jk_lewis]

The fungicidal benefits of lime sulfur are quite short lived -- even at the 100% concentration we use in bonsai. Two weeks to a month.

And, while the wood hardener is not a pesticide like lime sulfur, it does make wood unpalatable to fungus and critters.

If the wood you are working on is soft and punky, it should be cleaned away with a wire brush on a Dremel or similar tool. Then you would apply your chemicals. If you are going to use lime sulfur, use it first. Let it dry thoroughly so the deadwood turns white (or whatever), and then apply the wood hardener. You will find that the hardener leaves a gloss on the wood, which is not what we want, so another application of the wire brush (but more lightly applied) is necessary.

 

[rockm]

"The fungicidal benefits of lime sulfur are quite short lived -- even at the 100%"

While that is certainly true, it doesn't seal the wood, as wood hardener can. It allows the treated wood to dry out if it becomes wet. With wood hardener that may not be the case. Water can seep in behind the hardened wood and remain there, ecouraging rot behind. It can be insidious, as the outer "shell" of wood looks fine, but a 1/4" deeper may rot -- until it's past reprable condition. I've had this happen on at least one tree I treated with the stuff.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

That's good to know. Somehow, I thought it might absorb, maintain the shape, and preserve the wood longer. Your description of the shell effect doesn't sound good. Was this poly based minwax, or a water based preserver?

FWIW, LS can be removed from deadwood with a wire brush, so if you dont like the effect, it can be removed...less of a stain than a coating.

 

[jk_lewis]

I have to disagree with Rock. The proper way to use the MinWax woodhardener is to remove all the punky wood, then treat the remainder with the product. It is, after all, not made tobe used on bonsai. It is used on lumber that has been exposed to the elements and is beginning to rot in certain places (joints, nail holes, places where objects have sat too long, etc.) You are expected to fill the resulting hollows with a good wood filler (probably a minWax product ). Generally I then treat the filler with the hardener. Works great on decks. I have never seen an instance where moistrure seeped behind the hardener -- assuming you removed all of the pithy, punky wood in the first pace.

 

[rockm]

"I have never seen an instance where moistrure seeped behind the hardener -- assuming you removed all of the pithy, punky wood in the first pace."

Well, there's the problem. Removing that much deadwood on some trees would remove it ALL. I've worked as a contractor, rennovating old homes, so I'm pretty familiar with how to use wood hardeners.

Applying wood hardener on a piece of woodwork, decking or strucutural wood is one thing. Applying it on artistic deadwood on a bonsai is another. The applications are not aimed at accomplishing the same thing. Using it to work on a house usually means you're after removing rotted dead wood and covering the stuff up with either another piece of wood, paint or sealer that is designed to keep water out.

With bonsai, you're trying to preserve artistically important elements that will be exposed to the elements. There is no paint, cover board, etc. to prevent or forestall moisture entry. Water will find a way in, even wicking up from the bottom of the deadwood from the soil.

I'm not saying this is common, but I've seen it happen, particularly with soft-wooded species like wisteria and rose wood.

It's something to keep in mind in choosing what to apply to deadwood elements that aren't already rotted. Using a wood hardener on sound deadwood is counterproductive, IMO.

 

[daygan]

Yeah, but...

Well, there's the problem. Removing that much deadwood on some trees would remove it ALL.

Right.. and in those instances, removing deadwood might not be the best sollution, but that's not all trees, is it?

It's something to keep in mind in choosing what to apply to deadwood elements that aren't already rotted. Using a wood hardener on sound deadwood is counterproductive, IMO.

But wouldn't applying wood hardener to sound deadwood at least provide some degree of moisture sealant, and at the very least delay any rotting that might occur, if not counterract it inevitably?

Here's a summary of the method I've found at bonsai4me.com for preserving deciduous dead wood (http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATPreserving Deadwood.html)

1. Deal quickly with rotten areas by removing all very soft, crumbly wood (because it's difficult to preserve anyway)

2. Treat the remaining wood with anti-bacterial and anti-fungal sollutions. (Lime sulfer for a bleached look or Armillatox for a natural wood look)

3. Apply any color modifications that you want to use. (inks, paints for grey, coffee grounds for brown)

4. Seal against moisture with wood hardener, which seeps into the wood and hardens on contact with moisture. Try not to apply too much, but if you do apply too much and get a plastic sheen on the surface, that can be removed with light sanding.

Anyway, hope that's useful information.

 

[berobinson82]

When I bought my first boxwood, I plucked off every leaf during summer time and it pushed back many more smaller leaves. Where I pulled 1 leaf, a new shoot with 6 leaves replaced it. These new leaves were much smaller and filled out the pads. Can this same treatment be applied to the ilex? The leaves are too large currently.