Is it too early for air layers and cuttings

[Lookout Mountain Bonsai]

I have several trees in the yard and in the greenhouse that appear to be hardened off and ready. Just wanted to get everyones thoughts. I would like to get a huge jump on propagation this year.

 

[bonsai barry]

I suppose it depends where you live. Where I live in a very moderate climate, one veteran told me to do my air-layers on Valentines Day and remove them on the Fourth of July... its useful to remember, but I actually keep them on a little longer.

 

[Lookout Mountain Bonsai]

Im in NE Alabama with a long growing season. Last year I started several in June and removed them in October early November. All are in one gallon containers. I would like to get an earlier start to increase the number I can get rooted this season.

 

[garywood]

LMB. my preference is to layer before bud break. You can layer anytime but using the hormone rush of bud break has worked well for me.
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

 

[Lookout Mountain Bonsai]

LMB. my preference is to layer before bud break. You can layer anytime but using the hormone rush of bud break has worked well for me.
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

The time I tried prior to bud break did not yeild a single success. I may try next spring to test the results between the different time of year. Thanks for the response.

 

[garywood]

LMB, when you say, no success, what specifically was the result?
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

 

[Lookout Mountain Bonsai]

LMB, when you say, no success, what specifically was the result?
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

There was alot of swelling and what appeared to be roots when it was removed but it never did leaf back out the following spring. Have you noticed a shorter time frame when layering that early or do you leave it attached until cold weather rolls in? This past summer I had some luck with a kotohime and hygasiama. I had 100% success on those two trees although we are only talking about four large branches the size of a broom handle and a little larger. They are in one gallon containers in the greenhouse and will probably go in the ground over a tile this fall or next spring.

 

[Poink88]

I do cuttings as the buds start to swell.

All advise that I've read/got from fellow bonsai enthusiasts whose advise I really thrust is to start the air layer AFTER the new leaves/growth have hardened. The leaves produce the needed food to generate the roots. They also force the roots to grow to fill their need/demand for nutrients.

Also, do not thin, trim, or prune until you are ready to separate the air layer. The more leaves you have, the faster and the more roots you will get. Good luck!!!

 

[garywood]

I do cuttings as the buds start to swell.

All advise that I've read/got from fellow bonsai enthusiasts whose advise I really thrust is to start the air layer AFTER the new leaves/growth have hardened. The leaves produce the needed food to generate the roots. They also force the roots to grow to fill their need/demand for nutrients.

Dario, perhaps you could explain the physiological difference with your examples? There seems to be two different sets of rules.

 

[Poink88]

Dario, perhaps you could explain the physiological difference with your examples? There seems to be two different sets of rules.

Yes, those are 2 different rules for 2 different propagation methods. Please note that one is cutting, the other is for air layering.

 

[garywood]

Dario, I can appreciate your distinction of what the technique may be but the tree doesn't have that capacity. What physiological response are you saying is different between the two?

 

[Poink88]

Dario, I can appreciate your distinction of what the technique may be but the tree doesn't have that capacity. What physiological response are you saying is different between the two?

Since I already explained the air layering, then the reason for the cutting is at that point, the branch still have stored energy it can use to grow both roots and leaves. If you wait until the leaves are out, the cutting might not have enough to produce roots. Leaves also transpire water, w/o roots it most likely lose the leaves it just invested its energy on.

Air layer on the other hand still have continues supply from the tree roots.

That is how I understood it anyway and works for me.

 

[garywood]

Dario, no offense intended but what the hell did you say? Are conditions different or is the end result not to initiate roots in the same physiological state, dormancy? What physiological response are you saying is duplex? And, why are you saying it?
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

 

[Poink88]

Dario, no offense intended but what the hell did you say? Are conditions different or is the end result not to initiate roots in the same physiological state, dormancy? What physiological response are you saying is duplex? And, why are you saying it?
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

Not sure why you are riding me, I don't even know you. You have a beef with me?

I already explained everything in my posts. If it is not obvious then YES they are different because the situation is different even if the goal is the same.

I am not saying I am right...it is just what I know, believe, and do. If you disagree, just say so and move on!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Not sure why you are riding me, I don't even know you. You have a beef with me?

I already explained everything in my posts. If it is not obvious then YES they are different because the situation is different even if the goal is the same.

I am not saying I am right...it is just what I know, believe, and do. If you disagree, just say so and move on!

Having seen lots (and yet only a small percentage) of the many thousand trees Gary has propagated, grown out, styled, grafted, and otherwise developed, and knowing how much my work has benefited from knowing Gary for the last 13 years, I can only presume that he is curious if you have found a new method for successfully propagating plant material. Problem is, you have yet to clearly articulate it...perhaps some specific examples, with timing and photos would help us all understand if you're doing something different. Sounds like the main difference is you're taking cuttings very early.

 

[Poink88]

Why ask all the questions and not just say so? If he is as good as you say he is...then his statement should carry that. As I said, I don't know him.

Propagation can be done in various times, when is optimal is the question and for me those are as I stated. Let me ask him now...Gary, can you explain why you prefer doing your air layering at bud or from dormancy?

 

[Poink88]

Brian,

Also, I am a firm believer that it doesn't matter if you've done it a million times, if it is wrong....it is still wrong. (NOTE) I am not saying this is the case with Gary but in same line...even if it worked for him a thousand times, it doesn't automatically mean it is the best. Though I am stubborn, I can be taught/educated and if I am mistaken, I would gladly accept the better method/technique. I will await his explanation.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Let me ask him now...Gary, can you explain why you prefer doing your air layering at bud or from dormancy?

Looks like he already did .....

You can layer anytime but using the hormone rush of bud break has worked well for me.

and for the record .... Gary's name carries all the weight you need to know .... the hormones he is referring to are auxins... which are produced in abundance during bud break ... these are the hormones that trigger root growth in plants

so Gary is asking you (quite clearly) how you believe that taking cuttings before bud break and starting air layers before bud break are in any way different from a root production stand point (this is the point of contention) .... I presume he is asking you this in the case that you might have some horticulturaly significant reason for choosing to wait until after bud break ....

take it for what it is.... a discussion about the physiology of plants .... nothing meant to attack you (sorry Gary is way too nice for that)

 

[Poink88]

...and I thought I mentioned that on my post (#7) which he even quoted. I also would rather hear from him what he thinks and not from anyone else.

 

[daygan]

Poink88, regardless of Gary's thoughts about your posts, I am curious just as a learner. Below, I've paraphrased what you said earlier to make it a little clearer for myself (and maybe others?):

With a cutting, if you take a cutting as the buds start to swell, the branch still has stored energy that it can use to grow both roots and leaves. If you wait until the leaves are out, the cutting might not have enough energy to produce roots. Leaves also transpire water, and without roots, the leaves that it used its energy to produce will most likely be lost.

With air layers, on the other hand, the branch still has a supply of nutrients from the parent tree.

And here are my two questions about the different times for different methods:

1.Are you suggesting that if an air layer were started as the buds start to swell, that it would not be able to use its stored energy to grow roots and leaves? If so, why not? Or is there another reason that air layers shouldn't be started as buds start to swell?

2. On the flip side, are you suggesting that if cuttings are taken after new leaves have hardened off, that, unlike an air layered branch, its leaves would not be able to assist in the production of roots? If so, why not?