Is the work worth the $59 price?

drew33998 said:
Yes I am trying to make better "material" decisions and really weighing in the pros and cons. I have purchased only one tree this year based on that. That red Japanese maple was the last mistake I will allow myself to make based on spending that type of money ($300.00 tree!). $59 is a pretty good deal to come by in our neck of the woods though. Typically you would pay upwards of $150 for something like this, but it would be a waste of money if it just D I E D. If I were to purchase and chop it this next pre-bud swell, MACH, would you recommend also reducing the root ball significantly?
Click to expand...
Well, you have a couple options:

1) Don't chop it the first year. Let it grow out and make sure it's healthy before doing anything drastic. You could even slip pot it in late winter/early spring to clean up the roots a bit and give it a full season of chill time before the abuse of a chop. I've learned that unless I'm really sure, waiting a season before abusing new material usually pays off.

2) Buy it and send it to me, and I'll post pics of doing #1. ;)
 
Cadillactaste said:
The biggest question...can you? Photos are of us looking down on the tree...and the base of the tree. Are you considering a chop? If so at what point on the tree? What is your final vision for this tree as a bonsai? Those also should apply to the factor of purchase.

I prefer movement in a trunk...but the next guy doesn't need it. Looks to have taper...but will that taper show at the place you plan on chopping it back to? Or...do you plan on just working with what it is without a chop? Many questions need answered...how tall is it currently if your planning to work with what it is instead of chopping?

If it speaks to you...then do it!
Click to expand...
When it gets chopped it grows in a different direction. Gives it movement and taper.
Chop and grow. Chop again. Grow again.
 
My vote is yes. The surface roots are very nice, and to me, that alone would be worth risking $60. If you purchase it, please show us photos of the rest of the tree.
 
Lazylightningny said:
Is that a graft scar at the base?
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking... Hate to get 10-20 years down the road and still have that staring me in the face with a decent tree on top.

But this had me a little confused...
drew33998 said:
It appears to be a standard green JMM.
Click to expand...

Someone more familiar with the hort. industry correct me if I'm wrong... but don't they graft varieties onto standard JM rootstock?
If this is a graft, what would the point be of grafting a standard branch onto standard stock?:confused:

If, however, this is just an oxidation line from being buried deeper the year or two prior I'd go for it - something that size would run about 275-350 up near me. Comparatively, $59 bought me a bloodgood no bigger than my thumb last year...
 
Cadillactaste said:
@Smoke...your a maple guy...you may see it entirely different than I.
Click to expand...
True, but I see things way different than other people do. Not because I am better than others, I have just reached a point in my career as a bonsai practitioner that wasting my time on bad material is not worth it to me. When I see someone say that 59.00 is a price they are willing to pay to learn on or allow to die because they were not competent enough to do the correct work is a crutch to say, "gee I want this material at any price and since its cheap if it dies who cares."?

I care. I don't buy material to chop down. Sure, I have experimented and had some successes along the way but for the most part I am not a dead head kind of chopper. I treat the purchase of every piece of material I buy as a long term tree with definate possibilities of being a show worthy tree in my life time. It does not matter if its $10.00 or $1000.00. Every purchase has to meet my ruthless set of principles or I don't buy it. Let me show you two trees. Lets say that each costs $50.00. Trident maples, one is rather small and one is very thick. Both cost the same, but on a cursery review which stump offers the most for a best tree?

red.jpg

For some it may be the tree on the left with its very beautiful and well developed hogarth curve trunk. For others it might be the sheer size of the trunk in comparison to the other for the same price. Both trees have some movement which is paramount. They both exit the soil at a slant which is extremely necessary for a good bonsai. A tree bolting straight from the ground is never very good except for broom style trees or formal upright form trees. Keeping in mind that these are my opinions and others will see if different, the tree on the left will probably always be a shohin sized tree. The hogarth curve is well established in the trunk already and it has good taper and excellent visual speed*.

* Visual Speed = the ability of a bonsai to be made in such a way that the trunk tapers to the top evenly, the space of the branches diminsh from bottom to top evenly and the internodes of the leaves do the same from branch at trunk to tip. In other words one should be able to take in a tree from bottom to top in one visual episode with no bumps in the speed of that view. Bumps being uneven spaces between branches, larger branches above thinner lower branches etc., etc.


The right tree on the other hand has the potential of being a much larger finished tree if that is what one wants. This tree could easily finish out a 24 inches or more. If grown in the ground thicker bottom branches could be grown as sacrificial limbs and cut back for taper over a period of time. During this time the apex could also benefit from some sacrificial growth. While not as shapely as the smaller charge, the top could have some new directional changes in it to help with more movement.

From my point of view, I feel the tree on the left has more of the attributes I wish my stump to have when starting a new tree. I have no problem in making small trees while others like larger trees. The tree on the right, for me needs lots of time to smooth out some chop visuals. The large chop that started the stump has an abrupt direction change with a very square corner. It will take at least five years or more for that to smooth out. It will only do that with long sacrificial growth and working on the trunk prematurely will hinder that change. The small tree while having fresh pruning scars shows very smooth transitions in the trunk, making it "pretty", which is a term used often when referring to maples.

Now this tree from the OP. I think I have made some very clear and consise statements about what I want when buying a maple. It should be no surprise to anyone how I might feel about that maple even at $59.00. Even at $29.00, for me, it would be a leverite tree.

Leverite where it is in the nursery!

Italic text are key points.
 
Last edited:
Smoke said:
oh BTW the price on the tree to the left...

View attachment 88215
Click to expand...

I was going for the left...since I do smaller scale bonsai. The tree on the right seemed more masculine and bulky for my tastes. That price IS A STEAL! Woe...sticker shock at how great a deal it is...I don't do maples per say...but I am learning. Though...in all honesty my eye for a trunk doesn't lean to a specific species...just character. The trunk is the bones of a tree. The top can be manipulated icing...but the bones are what makes me itch to see it further along.
 
drew33998 said:
Base is nice but I would have to chop it way back.
Click to expand...

Perhaps they can tell you if it is an Acer palmatum, or Acer palmatum ‘Atropurpurpeum’. The first will have green leaves, the second will have red leaves. Looking at the leafs that dropped I can "guess" it is green but could not be certain by pictures alone. Here the red variety goes almost all green before leaf drop in the Fall so it "could" be red :confused:

Grimmy
 
I had to google hogarth curve. got it now, though.

I have to go with Darlene on this one. the little guy has more potential for me. I hate all the big, ugly scars we get on chops, but what else can you do?
 
ColinFraser said:
You can always grab one from that seller's eBay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Muranaka-Bonsai-Nursery-1978
Prices may be a bit higher to cover fees and included shipping, but are still usually quite good :)
Click to expand...

Thanks! Gotta love our enablers/contacts here on the forum. Will put that link in my bookmark for "potential bonsai" resources...That's how I scored my wisteria...Adair was my contact. :cool:...though right now, I'm holding off on a possible Amur with a lovely URO trunk. No real development but a great price also on the bones. It's whom I got my shimpaku mame bonsai from. ;) Waiting for them to thaw out from ice for a photo. But...love having potential contacts. Been very blessed with the contacts I have made.
 
When things seem too good to be true they usually are. Went to buy it and the owner was like that it s tagged wrong. It's really $180. No thanks
 
Smoke said:
Now this tree from the OP. I think I have made some very clear and consise statements about what I want when buying a maple. It should be no surprise to anyone how I might feel about that maple even at $59.00. Even at $29.00, for me, it would be a leverite tree.

Leverite where it is in the nursery!
Click to expand...

May use that phrase Al? I would love to share it with a friend who does bonsai...but isn't a member here at the forum. I'm more selective when it comes to material now. It's been proven a $9 tree in the eyes of the beholder...can bring $200. But...it was not a leverite tree. It had neagari roots that needed just eventual exposed from the substrate.


I personally would think that money invested in material that thrived in your neck of the woods would be a better investment. For long term...but honestly...to the OP...it's your green backs...your investment. You have much food for thought. Chew on it...if you do go back and make a purchase. Share with us your progress. We are still interested...to see what one does with the trees they buy.
 
drew33998 said:
When things seem too good to be true they usually are. Went to buy it and the owner was like that it s tagged wrong. It's really $180. No thanks
Click to expand...

o_O How can it be tagged wrong!?! Most would sell as price tagged and leave it go even if it were a mistake. That was poor business. I could see if it were $80 and the 1 wore off...but $59 is far from that mistake of a number wearing off. Well...guess his poor business decision of not selling it...took the guessing out of the purchase. Sorry about that.

Was it not even the tree then it was tagged under? I'm confused as to the owners story. Bugger...better material for your climate then...keep looking. If it were me...I would refrain from making a purchase there though.
 
Smoke said:
True, but I see things way different than other people do. Not because I am better than others, I have just reached a point in my career as a bonsai practitioner that wasting my time on bad material is not worth it to me. When I see someone say that 59.00 is a price they are willing to pay to learn on or allow to die because they were not competent enough to do the correct work is a crutch to say, "gee I want this material at any price and since its cheap if it dies who cares."?

I care. I don't buy material to chop down. Sure, I have experimented and had some successes along the way but for the most part I am not a dead head kind of chopper. I treat the purchase of every piece of material I buy as a long term tree with definate possibilities of being a show worthy tree in my life time. It does not matter if its $10.00 or $1000.00. Every purchase has to meet my ruthless set of principles or I don't buy it. Let me show you two trees. Lets say that each costs $50.00. Trident maples, one is rather small and one is very thick. Both cost the same, but on a cursery review which stump offers the most for a best tree?

View attachment 88211

For some it may be the tree on the left with its very beautiful and well developed hogarth curve trunk. For others it might be the sheer size of the trunk in comparison to the other for the same price. Both trees have some movement which is paramount. They both exit the soil at a slant which is extremely necessary for a good bonsai. A tree bolting straight from the ground is never very good except for broom style trees or formal upright form trees. Keeping in mind that these are my opinions and others will see if different, the tree on the left will probably always be a shohin sized tree. The hogarth curve is well established in the trunk already and it has good taper and excellent visual speed*.

* Visual Speed = the ability of a bonsai to be made in such a way that the trunk tapers to the top evenly, the space of the branches diminsh from bottom to top evenly and the internodes of the leaves do the same from branch at trunk to tip. In other words one should be able to take in a tree from bottom to top in one visual episode with no bumps in the speed of that view. Bumps being uneven spaces between branches, larger branches above thinner lower branches etc., etc.


The right tree on the other hand has the potential of being a much larger finished tree if that is what one wants. This tree could easily finish out a 24 inches or more. If grown in the ground thicker bottom branches could be grown as sacrificial limbs and cut back for taper over a period of time. During this time the apex could also benefit from some sacrificial growth. While not as shapely as the smaller charge, the top could have some new directional changes in it to help with more movement.

From my point of view, I feel the tree on the left has more of the attributes I wish my stump to have when starting a new tree. I have no problem in making small trees while others like larger trees. The tree on the right, for me needs lots of time to smooth out some chop visuals. The large chop that started the stump has an abrupt direction change with a very square corner. It will take at least five years or more for that to smooth out. It will only do that with long sacrificial growth and working on the trunk prematurely will hinder that change. The small tree while having fresh pruning scars shows very smooth transitions in the trunk, making it "pretty", which is a term used often when referring to maples.

Now this tree from the OP. I think I have made some very clear and consise statements about what I want when buying a maple. It should be no surprise to anyone how I might feel about that maple even at $59.00. Even at $29.00, for me, it would be a leverite tree.

Leverite where it is in the nursery!

Italic text are key points.
Click to expand...

Smoke, every once in a while you refrain from making snarky posts, and produce a gem! This is one of those gems.
 
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