James W 6yr JBP Contest entry

[James W.]

One thing I have noticed: roots are beginning 1" - 2" below the surface of the soil. So if I pick up a seedling that looks like the first branch is 3" above the soil it is actually may be 5" from the shallowest roots. So what I thought might become a 9" tree will have to be a least a 15" tree.

 

[River's Edge]

One thing I have noticed: roots are beginning 1" - 2" below the surface of the soil. So if I pick up a seedling that looks like the first branch is 3" above the soil it is actually may be 5" from the shallowest roots. So what I thought might become a 9" tree will have to be a least a 15" tree.
View attachment 229171

Not actually, simple development techniques to promote back budding in the first few years of development will encourage lower branching if desired. One should not assume that design will be based on what is apparrent at this stage. It is far too early, application of wire, back budding, decandling, balancing, sacrifice branches can all change the outcome.

 

[James W.]

Not actually, simple development techniques to promote back budding in the first few years of development will encourage lower branching if desired. One should not assume that design will be based on what is apparrent at this stage. It is far too early, application of wire, back budding, decandling, balancing, sacrifice branches can all change the outcome.

I probably read it somewhere but I don't remember it. What do I need to do (now?) to get lower branches? I seem to remember that if I had nipped the tops off last summer that would encourage branching.
A few I have wired to put a kink at or slightly above ground level. It might be easier to just step on them once they get to growing this spring.
Thank you

 

[River's Edge]

I probably read it somewhere but I don't remember it. What do I need to do (now?) to get lower branches? I seem to remember that if I had nipped the tops off last summer that would encourage branching.
A few I have wired to put a kink at or slightly above ground level. It might be easier to just step on them once they get to growing this spring.
Thank you

You have plenty of time to figure it out so no worries. based on the pictures there is no rush. Of course it would take a lot of typing and back and forth to lay out the process for developing JBP from seed, others have done it well so i will reference a few sources. Lots of info in this forum throughout, Bonsai Today Masters Series Pine Book ( section on Pine from Seed) , If you prefer internet there is a great series of articles on the Bonsai Tonight site by Jonas Dupuich.
The most important step for the next two or three years is wiring for movement in the trunk. Best to accomplish this when the trunk is less than 1 cm in diameter, but pines are very bendable and lots can be accomplished later on as well. I would discourage any cutback until year four or five in most cases, unless you are focussing on Shohin, and even then reaching an appropropriate trunk size is the first goal. Here is an example of what i mean. This tree is entering the fifth growing season and has responded with lower branching due to needle reduction and minor cut back in the beginning of year three and four. Buds occurring in the lower trunk area have been retained by making sure they are not shaded and receive sun. Note the bare areas on larger branches are free of needles to let light into the smaller buds and tiny branches.
The other point i am trying to make is that the original branches rarely form part of the design unless becoming a new top for example. You can see one larger branch that has been wired in an upright position to take over as a new top. The other bigger branches below that will likely be sacrifice branches in the end and not part of the final design. It is desireable to encourage more branching lower down for more options in design, particularily if smaller trees are the goal. Hope these comments help. You have lots of time to explore options and plan ahead.

 

[James W.]

You have plenty of time to figure it out so no worries. based on the pictures there is no rush. Of course it would take a lot of typing and back and forth to lay out the process for developing JBP from seed, others have done it well so i will reference a few sources. Lots of info in this forum throughout, Bonsai Today Masters Series Pine Book ( section on Pine from Seed) , If you prefer internet there is a great series of articles on the Bonsai Tonight site by Jonas Dupuich.
The most important step for the next two or three years is wiring for movement in the trunk. Best to accomplish this when the trunk is less than 1 cm in diameter, but pines are very bendable and lots can be accomplished later on as well. I would discourage any cutback until year four or five in most cases, unless you are focussing on Shohin, and even then reaching an appropropriate trunk size is the first goal. Here is an example of what i mean. This tree is entering the fifth growing season and has responded with lower branching due to needle reduction and minor cut back in the beginning of year three and four. Buds occurring in the lower trunk area have been retained by making sure they are not shaded and receive sun. Note the bare areas on larger branches are free of needles to let light into the smaller buds and tiny branches.
The other point i am trying to make is that the original branches rarely form part of the design unless becoming a new top for example. You can see one larger branch that has been wired in an upright position to take over as a new top. The other bigger branches below that will likely be sacrifice branches in the end and not part of the final design. It is desireable to encourage more branching lower down for more options in design, particularily if smaller trees are the goal. Hope these comments help. You have lots of time to explore options and plan ahead.View attachment 229195

Very helpful, thank you. The photograph illustrates your point very well, thank you for taking the time and effort.
I have the book, I will check Bonsai Tonight (again I think). Too much information all at once for my little brain to assimilate. I had missed that we can get back budding lower on the trunk later.
Is there a danger in wiring too early? or is it just wasted effort? (Other than the tendency to wire curves on small trees that will be inappropriate on a bigger tree.) For instance, I was going to wire some tight wiggles into the lower 1" - 3" of some seedlings hoping that when they are an inch or three in diameter it would lend some character to the base.

OK, thinking it through a little . . .
The answer is "Patience, grasshopper" and "Concentrate on getting them to grow for now".

Thank you all.

 

[River's Edge]

Very helpful, thank you. The photograph illustrates your point very well, thank you for taking the time and effort.
I have the book, I will check Bonsai Tonight (again I think). Too much information all at once for my little brain to assimilate. I had missed that we can get back budding lower on the trunk later.
Is there a danger in wiring too early? or is it just wasted effort? (Other than the tendency to wire curves on small trees that will be inappropriate on a bigger tree.) For instance, I was going to wire some tight wiggles into the lower 1" - 3" of some seedlings hoping that when they are an inch or three in diameter it would lend some character to the base.

OK, thinking it through a little . . .
The answer is "Patience, grasshopper" and "Concentrate on getting them to grow for now".

Thank you all.

Wiring for movement is dependant on the size, as you suggest one has to keep in mind the outcome in relation to the desired size and shape rather than the current size. Because pines are quite flexible i prefer to wait until the trunk is a minimum of 1/4 inch or 6-7 mm in diameter!
Not a rule just an opinion based on experience. Have fun, try different things and learn from the experience. Keep a few more initially to ensure you have enough to experiment with.

 

[James W.]

Found one with good roots! So I planted it on a flat plastic lid about 1 inch deep. Maybe could have used something bigger? It's not too late to change it.

 

[James W.]

Planted 8 in RootMaker pots (4 of these are twin trunks, for now)

 

[James W.]

72 in 4" RootMaker pots

 

[James W.]

And 20 in tree pots for ROR next year

 

[James W.]

The ones in 1 pint Rootmaker II pots are doing much better than the ones in 4" rootmakers.
One problem with the 4" rootmaker is that the openings in the bottom are large enough to let 1/4" mix just run through. I put some bigger chunks in the pots to prevent that but some pots have had all the potting mix get washed out.
I do not think this experiment needs to go much more, I am moving all to the other pots.

 

[hemmy]

The ones in 1 pint Rootmaker II pots are doing much better than the ones in 4" rootmakers.
One problem with the 4" rootmaker is that the openings in the bottom are large enough to let 1/4" mix just run through. I put some bigger chunks in the pots to prevent that but some pots have had all the potting mix get washed out.
I do not think this experiment needs to go much more, I am moving all to the other pots.
View attachment 241714View attachment 241715

Slowing growth was also was my experience with the seed starter rootmakers for pines if left in for too long. It is a very small volume of substrate especially when you have too plug the openings. The Rootmaker site notes that time in the propagation trays is usually 2-4 months. I’m not sure the seed starters do much for pines with as many times as we work the roots. Especially if you use the seedling cutting method 1 or more times and work the roots on container shifts. I used them on oaks acorns last year and had good results, but with only a couple flats I probably could have cut the tap roots early after germination away.

Will you shift your pint pines to gallons this year? Do you think you can shift young pines with some rootwork in the summer in KS or will you have to wait for the fall? I went into a mix of 1 gal rootmakers and smaller pots both solid and meshed sides and will probably shift some of the smaller ones this fall. Maybe I will also shift some gallons up, if I plan for a bigger tree not part of the contest.

P.S. thanks for the beer placement, that’s a new one for me. I have to look for it when I’m back in KS next!

 

[James W.]

Slowing growth was also was my experience with the seed starter rootmakers for pines if left in for too long. It is a very small volume of substrate especially when you have too plug the openings. The Rootmaker site notes that time in the propagation trays is usually 2-4 months. I’m not sure the seed starters do much for pines with as many times as we work the roots. Especially if you use the seedling cutting method 1 or more times and work the roots on container shifts. I used them on oaks acorns last year and had good results, but with only a couple flats I probably could have cut the tap roots early after germination away.

Will you shift your pint pines to gallons this year? Do you think you can shift young pines with some rootwork in the summer in KS or will you have to wait for the fall? I went into a mix of 1 gal rootmakers and smaller pots both solid and meshed sides and will probably shift some of the smaller ones this fall. Maybe I will also shift some gallons up, if I plan for a bigger tree not part of the contest.

P.S. thanks for the beer placement, that’s a new one for me. I have to look for it when I’m back in KS next!

I plan on shifting to the 1 pint RootMaker pots immediately. I might lose a few but not as many as I am afraid will die in the smaller pots. "Immediately" means "as soon as I get more bonsai mix made"
I plan to leave them in the 1 pint pots at least until next winter.

I think I will try the 4" pots to start seeds in next year. I started some elms in them last year and it worked OK. Regular potting mix with some DE doesn't fall out and seems to work fine.

 

[James W.]

85 RootMaker pots.

 

[James W.]

I had to be gone for 10 days and this is what I saw when we returned yesterday. God decided to help with culling and training. We got some hail last Tuesday evening (small tornado about 1/2 mile away). Roof is destroyed, cars look like golf balls.
My poor trees don't look so hot. I think about 1/4 are just dead. Another 1/4 have all needles gone or "trimmed" to 1/2" or shorter. I didn't have the heart to sort through them all yet.

There are still plenty to work with, and some character development has been started.

 

[Hartinez]

I had to be gone for 10 days and this is what I saw when we returned yesterday. God decided to help with culling and training. We got some hail last Tuesday evening (small tornado about 1/2 mile away). Roof is destroyed, cars look like golf balls.
My poor trees don't look so hot. I think about 1/4 are just dead. Another 1/4 have all needles gone or "trimmed" to 1/2" or shorter. I didn't have the heart to sort through them all yet.
View attachment 248743View attachment 248744
There are still plenty to work with, and some character development has been started.

Oof. Sorry to hear that. A product merely of weather disaster? Or was there some neglect from the person caring for them while you were gone?

 

[James W.]

Oof. Sorry to hear that. A product merely of weather disaster? Or was there some neglect from the person caring for them while you were gone?

No fault of my caretaker. My 19 year old daughter has been quite diligent and follows instruction very well. A few of those trees were on the way out already, I applied fungicide before I left.

 

[Hartinez]

No fault of my caretaker. My 19 year old daughter has been quite diligent and follows instruction very well. A few of those trees were on the way out already, I applied fungicide before I left.

Bummer none the less. I left town for 2 weeks recently and lost 2 trees to excessive winds. My house keeper did wonderful. My oldest is only 10, but when he’s old enough he’ll be on watering duty for sure.

 

[hemmy]

There are still plenty to work with, and some character development has been started.

Definite by mmer! But as you said, “character development”! Since you are in a normal decandling window for this species and they were so vigorous, I think many of them will bounce back. Long term there is a post on the ‘Show us your benches’ thread, from a Dallas grower that built hail screen enclosures over his benches.

A few of those trees were on the way out already, I applied fungicide before I left.

Just normal loss during repotting? That couple week tie frame from your end of May post is similar to what I experience when I have lost some after repotting. I’d say my success rate is high 80-90% on saplings and I have noticed a strong correlation to lack of white fleshy root tips during the repot.

I hope that they bounce back for you and that your temps stay reasonable for another month!

 

[James W.]

Many will recover, but definitely seriously set back.
Of more concern are the 22 RORs. They are weaker anyway because of the extensive root work and more restricted soil. Heading into the hardest part of the year for my trees, I don't know how many will make it.
Here is one fairly typical now:

Older JBP and mugo pines seemed to not suffer nearly as much damage, just an occasional missing candle. Junipers, spruce and holly trees appear untouched.
Elms are stripped, what leaves are left are damaged. Same with the azaleas. 4 new rough bark tridents with most leaves intact but bark beat off. Thyme leaved cotoneasters have branches broken off. 3 dozen amaryllis completely defoliated, wait and see if the bulbs were bruised too much. Scented geramiums completely defoliated. Etc., etc, . . .
Most everything older stuff should recover, just lost a season of growth. One, two, three year old seedlings, not so much.