JBP question

kmdesigns

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How old does a JBP need to be before it starts to produce cones? I have about 25 seedlings that I've started from seed and all are doing very well. I'm considering allowing one to grow freely for years to be a mother plant solely for the purpose of collecting cones. I know I can also get older trees from a local nursery if trying to grow up one of my seedlings isn't a feasible idea.

Thanks
 

garywood

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K, 6-8 years depending on where you are and growing conditions. That's the earliest and time goes on.
Wood
 
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By the time you're Getting viable cones, your other seedlings may be halfway to nice shohin! Growing anything other than Mame pines is a long long process, not the least of which, I'm beginning to understand, is the learning curve! Not said to discourage, because growing from seed is quite rewarding, and i have flats full of seddlings. but many seedling pines have unfavorable charachteristics, the genetic gamble, its likely that your seeds will be hybrids of whatever other punes grow nearby. I collected seed from a lovely dwarf JBP, 40 years old and 6 ft tall with 2" needles. Almost all had super long, often twisted needles, I'm guessing they hybridized with the local longleafs. I find it easier to buy seedling stock with good characteristics.
 

kmdesigns

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The seeds I ordered were specifically intended to be grown for bonsai. Hopefully there wont be any major issues as they grow. I've decided I'm probably going to look for a nursery JBP to cut out about 5-6 years of waiting.
 

rockm

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"The seeds I ordered were specifically intended to be grown for bonsai."

There is no such thing. There are no "specific" seeds used for bonsai. Seeds are seeds...hope you didn't trade your cow for them...:D
 

monza

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"The seeds I ordered were specifically intended to be grown for bonsai."

There is no such thing. There are no "specific" seeds used for bonsai. Seeds are seeds...hope you didn't trade your cow for them...:D


Now thats funny!
 

rockm

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Sorry, couldn't resist. It was mean, but the person that sold the seeds might be meaner, or mis-informed. This isn't all that uncommon. Ebay is full of "bonsai" seed sellers.
 

Bill S

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Well I have seen enough of your posts to think it was funny, kmdesigns he was being funny even if he did mean it. I though it was funny anyway. True too.;)
 

kmdesigns

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I any case, I know there aren't "special" seeds that produce bonsai. I'm not that new. What I was saying is that they were sold and purchased with the intention that they would be grown for bonsai. I meant that statement as an answer to the earlier post saying he collected some and he felt that they had hybridized with local pines.

No I didn't trade my cow to buy them...just my car.

With the whole "special" seed thing in mind. Where does the "mikawa" variety fall into this? I came across someone selling "mikawa" JBP seeds on eBay. I did some reading that these actually can pass on the traits of the parents through the seed. Is this true? I also wanted to know if I did purchase these or any other JBP seeds at this time, how would I store them for next spring?
 
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Smoke

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A Mikawa black pine is a black pine growing in the "Mikawa" region of Japan.

Mikawa seed grown out in Fresno CA. will produce a black pine grown in Fresno CA. The attributes that make Mikawa black pines special are growing conditions found only in the Mikawa region of Japan. These may be soil conditions, wind, rain, minerals in the soil, etc. etc.

Your Mikawa seeds grown in Fresno may look nothing like a Mikawa pine growing in Mikawa Japan.
 

Bill S

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Not sure what to make of that then Al, Julian Adams sold me a mikawa last year, if so would they have to be grown from cuttings?
 

Smoke

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Not sure what to make of that then Al, Julian Adams sold me a mikawa last year, if so would they have to be grown from cuttings?


No, you have mikawa black pines. Grown from seed or cutting they are still mikawa black pines.

The issue is that when talking about seeds or cutting grown out anywhere but where they are indeginous is a misnomer. Mikawa seed grown out in New York city is gonna be mikawa black pines but they are not going to look anything like yamadori black pines collected from the mountains of Mikawa Japan.

another anology.....

If I supply you with some California juniper seeds do you think your grow out will look like this?

The names applied to blackpines are mostly for Bonsai people. Most nurseries will look at you funny if you ask for a Mikawa Black pine in a one gallon container. They have no idea what you are talking about. For the most part a regional suffix added to a botanical name is not a cultivar.
 

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mgallex

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I agree with what you have stated smoke. But how else do you differentiate between JBP cultivars that display different characteristics? I bought some 'mikawa' seeds with the understanding that they had the genetic trait of shorter needles. And in fact they seem to. Compared to other unknown sourced JBP I started at the same time and have had the exact same growing conditions and care, the 'mikawa's have remarkably shorter needles. Maybe I just got lucky. The naming of plants with binomial nomenclature has been so muddied up with common names, and as you say regional names, it seems it would be a hundred year project to sort it all out.
 

Smoke

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I agree with what you have stated smoke. But how else do you differentiate between JBP cultivars that display different characteristics? I bought some 'mikawa' seeds with the understanding that they had the genetic trait of shorter needles. And in fact they seem to. Compared to other unknown sourced JBP I started at the same time and have had the exact same growing conditions and care, the 'mikawa's have remarkably shorter needles. Maybe I just got lucky. The naming of plants with binomial nomenclature has been so muddied up with common names, and as you say regional names, it seems it would be a hundred year project to sort it all out.

I'm not saying we should. Unseperate them I mean. What I am saying is that given enough time, a plant indeginous to a specific area that has attributes favorable to that area will exhibit new charicteristics of its new surrounding over time. Thus ruining the effects that made it so desirable in the first place.

For instance the local nursery brings in elms from China. When they get here the bark is wonderful, exfoliating, with bright orange underneath, the bark is dark like glistening coal. After one season in our weather, the bark turns almost white or light grey, becomes very smooth like ficus bark, the internodes get larger and the leaves change dramatically. All the great look of a chinese elm has been lost in one season. It is now an American elm indiginous to China.


Here in the central valley, I can buy shimpaku on the coast that is so tight it looks like hinoki cypress foliage. Same with itogawa. After one season here the plants become almost unrecognizable as to their genetic makeup. This is in an unkempt condition. I mean under like circumstances as in a nursery in Monterey CA and Fresno CA.

The growing conditions of our differing climates makes a huge impact on how a plant looks as it grows. This is what I mean by comparing Mikawa pines grown in Mikawa Japan and anywhere USA. Climate has a huge impact on how plants grow.

Your conditions may vary! (edit: as I look at your region and see Toronto,Ontario Canada compared to Fresno CA, I can see why our perception may differ. Compared to a globe your much closer in conditions to this clmate than I am....significantly different.)

OK, carry on.
 
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Thomas J.

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I have to agree with Al on this. My Mikawas no longer have the small needles that they are supposed to have, and I've seen my new bought ch elms go from the nice reddish bark to an almost silver color in a season or two. :(
 
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What I am saying is that given enough time, a plant indeginous to a specific area that has attributes favorable to that area will exhibit new charicteristics of its new surrounding over time. .

This statement looks very much like misunderstood biology. Characteristics of any living being are the result of an interaction between its genotype and the environment. Thus changing the environment *may* well change the characteristics in a way, but there is absolutely no certitude that it will. As for JBP, if you have JBP with genetically determined shorter needles in Japan, chances are that even grown elsewhere, they will still exhibit shorter needles than JBP without this particular genetic trait.
The main problem here is how genetically stable are Mikawa JBP pines.
 
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tanlu

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This statement looks very much like misunderstood biology. Characteristics of any living being are the result of an interaction between its genotype and the environment. Thus changing the environment *may* well change the characteristics in a way, but there is absolutely no certitude that it will. As for JBP, if you have JBP with genetically determined shorter needles in Japan, chances are that even grown elsewhere, they will still exhibit shorter needles than JBP without this particular genetic trait.
The main problem here is how genetically stable are Mikawa JBP pines.

I would have to agree with Alain. The process of evolution takes much longer than several growing seasons. If the seed itself has certain characteristics in its genetic makeup, it most likely will exude those traits regardless of climate. One of the few instances where outward characteristics are effected by climate is when you have an Eastern White Pine (naturally long needles) on a mountain top exposed to full sun and harsh dry winds year round. Then it would naturally develop short needles with each new needle crop. However, vast majority of Eastern White Pines genetically have long needles, not suitable for bonsai cultivation.

Mikawa JBP have shorter needles because it just so happened that gradually over time that JBP with shorter needles cross pollenated with each other in the same area of Mikawa, Japan, which resulted in that short needle trait becoming genetically dominant in that population.

I purchased a Mikawa JBP from Julian Adams who purchases his seed from an expert grower in that region in Japan, and grows them from seed in his climate of western Virginia at the foot hills of the Appalachians. I live the NYC area and the needles on my sacrifice branches are noticeably shorter than those species JBP seen in parks.

fyi: In many parts of central and southern New Jersey JBP are considered an invasive species. Good collecting opportunities.
 
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Smoke

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Here are four pines. Two are mikawa. One is Mikawa grown from seed and one is Mikawa grown from cutting. The other two are not Mikawa pines. They have all been grown from seed except the one grown from cutting. Those grown from seed are from seed from Japan. All those grown from seed have been grown in California, but geographically different places.

These are pines I have in development.

Pick out the Mikawa's.



Pine no. One
 

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Smoke

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Pine no. two.
 

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