JM progression

[Eric Group]

I hear you. One last question, do you think it is less stressful for the tree to keep a crispy leaf or to lose it through manual defoliation?

I guess it depends... If the damage is severe enough, they will drop the leaf on their own... If it isn't but a few spots/ burned tips then the tree should be fine with keeping it on there. It won't look good, but it won't hurt the tree.

I know how they grow in my area, and have had a bunch of Maples for a long time... But I cannot speak to how they grow in Florida that much. From what I hear a tropical/ semi tropical environment can be tough on them. Where you are I think it is a bit more temperate than most areas of Florida, so they should be OK.

If you are going to give them a little more shade next year, let them leaf out in pretty much full sun before moving to partial shade. If the leaves break and harden off in a lot of sun, they will be used to it and more tolerant of it in the future. Many of mine are currently growing in FULL sun and we have had about a week straight of highs close to and above 100! I don't see any burned leaves today... So, I'd think just a tiny bit of sun protection should help even further south where you are.

 

[Paradox]

Hey Eric. I somehow missed this one this spring. Pretty cool story with this tree.

This one has a nice trunk, at least the bottom half.

Looking at the late winter pics, the top half of the trunk is very straight with not much taper.

I think what I would do if this were my tree is chop it around the half way mark (at the bottom of the really straight part) and rebuild the apex and taper from that point.

 

[Eric Group]

Hey Eric. I somehow missed this one this spring. Pretty cool story with this tree.

This one has a nice trunk, at least the bottom half.

Looking at the late winter pics, the top half of the trunk is very straight with not much taper.

I think what I would do if this were my tree is chop it around the half way mark (at the bottom of the really straight part) and rebuild the apex and taper from that point.

Thanks! Yeah that straight part up too bothered me in the old Winter pic as well, but I haven't made the chop yet for a couple reasons. I am trying to decide between a couple new leaders, and I wanted to see some prolific growth in the top this year to really fatten up the lower trunk and heal that large cut. Mission accomplished so far! I also think that once the tree has filled out (like it has this year) the long straight trunk will be less of an eye sore and I might wind up keeping it the way it is. I cannot wait to see the winter look this year for comparison. I expect a dramatic change from last year. If this tree can heal a large wound as fast as it did this season, I shouldn't have a big issue healing the chop if I wait... You can always take more off, but cannot put it back on! So, at least for now I am keeping it...

 

[Eric Group]

Such crappy pics... I am getting a real camera this weekend.. hopefully I can post some better shots of a few of my trees then... but for the time being, this is all really just for me to keep track of it's progression and I can at least see the changes with these pics, as crappy as they are! I phones don't take great pics in low light!

So, this year- tree was grown out, pruned, grown out and pruned again... probably three times during the heart of the growing season.. they grow much slower in the full heat of the summer so I left alone after the third trim back at the end of spring, and let it grow out. I meant to take a shot before touching it with the clippers this fall, but I got antsy and did some minor maintenance work! I removed most of the long shoots on top, did some branch selection around the apex to remove branches that were in a bad place, causing swelling where I didn't want it.. stuff I knew I wouldn't keep... Obviously those really long shoots on the right side of the tree never had a shear touch them this year- thickening those branches, healing scars... Most of that is done, just trying to decide when is the best time to remove them and where exactly I want to cut. When I get my camera I will try to do some close ups to ask for advice... but overall, this tree had a BIG year! So much growth, so many new shoots popping out everywhere! Scars healed over, base thickening and really starting to flare out, trunk getting thicker, bark starting to mature around the base... I like where it is going!

 

[Smoke]

If you have more established, trained bonsai and are just looking to reduce leaf size and increase ramification... Then defoliating is a good idea. ...

How have you come to this idea? Is this from experience or have you read this from someone?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

From this photo, along with years of "undoing" errors from leaving too-straight sections, these two spots draw my eye. They're too straight/taperless to build on. Before you're too invested in the twigs, I'd encourage you to address them.

I like the structure, and I'd reduce to what's good, eliminate the straight stuff, and grow it out again. Much easier said than done. I wish I had done it with my maple 10 years ago, but I'm doing it now!

 

[Giga]

I like this tree but I may have to agree with Brian on this. Maybe airlayer that top section and then have another tree!? But also if you are ok with it then by all mean keep at it.

 

[Eric Group]

How have you come to this idea? Is this from experience or have you read this from someone?

I read that the other night and knew you would jump on it! Lol

So, let me clarify- yes I understand that defoliating in and of itself does NOT promote ramification. It just reduces that year's second flush of growth... And is a technique you should use if you are trying to get smaller leaves that look perfect at the end of the year. My point was that it is not something you need or want to do when the tree is still young and until you have a more established tree that is already well ramified and has a good sized trunk- especially one where you are concerned about showing it late in the season and want a fresh flush of new leaves... It is not really necessary or even a very good idea to defoliate. I just didn't word it very well in that post obviously, I realize I. retrospect it sounds like it was telling people that is a legit method to increase ramification which it really doesn't do.

As for my experience with defoliating... I only really did that with two trees (well one FOREST and one stand alone) the forest was a group of Tridents that got big ugly leaves with kind of rough edges... And I just wanted clean looking, smaller leaves. Worked fine! I also tried in on a Red Maple I have to see how it would work with that species and am happy to say it really worked well! Normally they have larger leaves than most Maples we use for Bonsai, but after defoliation, the new leaves came out with a nice red time and they were as small as most the Trident leaves in my collection! I am happy to see that as I have some smaller ones I want to keep small and this is encouraging to know I can get smaller leaves if they ever get to the point where I want to show them... I don't really put any trees in shows now, but one day I might start if I decide I have some that are ready for that.

 

[Eric Group]

From this photo, along with years of "undoing" errors from leaving too-straight sections, these two spots draw my eye. They're too straight/taperless to build on. Before you're too invested in the twigs, I'd encourage you to address them.

I like the structure, and I'd reduce to what's good, eliminate the straight stuff, and grow it out again. Much easier said than done. I wish I had done it with my maple 10 years ago, but I'm doing it now!

Thanks for taking the time to do a virtual on this one Brian! I really value your opinion and I completely agree now... The more I have looked at this tree when it is "naked" the more I realize I have to do something with those sections you highlighted. I have been considering it since last year, but it looks so much better at this size with the leaves on! LOL.

Regardless, I have a small shoot coming off the right side low on that straight section that I think I am going to wind up reducing to. Probably going to do it this Spring I guess... Tha branch in the right side was already marked for reductiona a well. Not is hard to a we from this crappy pic, but there are three different shoots in that area! A small one below the existing branch, and one behind the larger one you can see... Change is deffinitely coming there. It was just allowed to run this year to heal a scar.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

One idea to consider along with the most of the chops that Brian recommended is to design a twin trunk; do a thread graft with that long whip from the lowest branch.

 

[0soyoung]

I read that the other night and knew you would jump on it! Lol

So, let me clarify- yes I understand that defoliating in and of itself does NOT promote ramification.

I disagree. Defoliating does, in fact, promote ramification. Leafs are auxin sources. Doing anything that causes the auxin flow to 'collapse' promotes release of the axilary buds which is what produces ramification.

The reason it is not such a good idea, and with acer palmatum in particular, is that it takes 6 to 8 weeks to have the second flush hardened (this time varies across species). During this time, the tree is living on the remainder of its starch reserves instead of producing photosynthates (a large part of the starch reserves were converted to sugar and consumed to make the first flush). Cutting back, but leaving one or two leaf pairs per stem, keeps the photosynthesis factory running - hence, the tree gets fed instead of starved. But, either way axillary buds are released which makes two new stems where there was but the one they are attached to in the beginning.

 

[Eric Group]

I disagree. Defoliating does, in fact, promote ramification. Leafs are auxin sources. Doing anything that causes the auxin flow to 'collapse' promotes release of the axilary buds which is what produces ramification.

The reason it is not such a good idea, and with acer palmatum in particular, is that it takes 6 to 8 weeks to have the second flush hardened (this time varies across species). During this time, the tree is living on the remainder of its starch reserves instead of producing photosynthates (a large part of the starch reserves were converted to sugar and consumed to make the first flush). Cutting back, but leaving one or two leaf pairs per stem, keeps the photosynthesis factory running - hence, the tree gets fed instead of starved. But, either way axillary buds are released which makes two new stems where there was but the one they are attached to in the beginning.

So... You are saying that removing the LEAVES only promotes extension of latent buds and increases ramification? That is not the case in my experience. You remove JUST the leaves and new leaves simply grow from the buds that come out at the base of those leaves. If you prune the stem or remove the primary bud then it promotes new branches to extend from the buds- and that is frequently done when defoliating, because most people are doing at least a light pruning at the same time- but I don't think you promote new branch extension from a spot that only had a leaf present simply by removing that leaf. It has never worked that way with any Trident, Japanese or Red Maple I have worked with any way...

I feel compelled to point out that I knew Smoke was going to jump all over that statement when I re-read it while I was adding to this thread because I had just read his blog (California Bonsai Art/ the Bunker) on this very subject where he gives very good detail of the process and reasons for Maple defoliation... So after reading what I had written again and how poorly worded it was, I knew he was going to have it fresh in His mind- as did I because I had just read his blog recently and had been working on my Maples doing some Fall maintenance... Not saying you are wrong Necessarily, just saying that the reason defoliating might promote ramification is more tied to removing the tips of the branches/ cutting the main stem, and not just the act of removing existing leaves... At least that is my understanding and what I have seen from my experience. To get both the buds at a node to sprout branches and create a fork, you have to prune back to that node... And even then they don't ALWAYS both grow of course... Silly trees being difficult!
just want to be clear and make sure we are all talking about the same thing. The last thing I want to do is make it seem like I am "arguing" with you or something Osoyoung, as I know you are a very well informed poster here and I know you have a great deal of knowledge! I certainly appreciate everything you post here... Just wanted to clarify what I meant by defoliation as everybody seems to do it differently to an extent.

Go check out the bunker for clarification. I thought it was a very good one- That Justin Case guy knows his stuff!

 

[Smoke]

So... You are saying that removing the LEAVES only promotes extension of latent buds and increases ramification? That is not the case in my experience. You remove JUST the leaves and new leaves simply grow from the buds that come out at the base of those leaves. If you prune the stem or remove the primary bud then it promotes new branches to extend from the buds- and that is frequently done when defoliating, because most people are doing at least a light pruning at the same time- but I don't think you promote new branch extension from a spot that only had a leaf present simply by removing that leaf. It has never worked that way with any Trident, Japanese or Red Maple I have worked with any way...

I feel compelled to point out that I knew Smoke was going to jump all over that statement when I re-read it while I was adding to this thread because I had just read his blog (California Bonsai Art/ the Bunker) on this very subject where he gives very good detail of the process and reasons for Maple defoliation... So after reading what I had written again and how poorly worded it was, I knew he was going to have it fresh in His mind- as did I because I had just read his blog recently and had been working on my Maples doing some Fall maintenance... Not saying you are wrong Necessarily, just saying that the reason defoliating might promote ramification is more tied to removing the tips of the branches/ cutting the main stem, and not just the act of removing existing leaves... At least that is my understanding and what I have seen from my experience. To get both the buds at a node to sprout branches and create a fork, you have to prune back to that node... And even then they don't ALWAYS both grow of course... Silly trees being difficult!
just want to be clear and make sure we are all talking about the same thing. The last thing I want to do is make it seem like I am "arguing" with you or something Osoyoung, as I know you are a very well informed poster here and I know you have a great deal of knowledge! I certainly appreciate everything you post here... Just wanted to clarify what I meant by defoliation as everybody seems to do it differently to an extent.

Go check out the bunker for clarification. I thought it was a very good one- That Justin Case guy knows his stuff!

Rather than write a whole new piece on the subject, I wish to clarify a few things.

Just so we all are on the same page, lets all remember that words mean things. The act of defoliation is a technique. The act of pruning is a technique. One will guarentee that division happens. Defoliation, BY ITSELF does not. Most people will nip and prune and balance and equalize after removing leaves. Just that act removes terminals and facilitates division.
Healthy growing maples are always in need of pruning, so pruning with leaves removed is a no brainer. No one would leave shoots with more than six pairs of leaves on it, so the tree is mostly in a state of constant pruning. A light pruning sometimes happens before defoliation, some time it may have been pruned a week or two before defoliation and ramification is chalked up to defoliation.

I can defoliate a trident six times in my climate with no degradation in the health of the tree. With over 80 trident maples at my house, if I could ramify tridents by defolaition alone, I could pop out ramified tridents by the hundreds for people. It just ain't the case.
Here is the tree I used for the article. Dec 15 and still looks like mid summer. It is still pushing leaves from buds that set last month. By the end of the month is will be leafless. I only have four trees with green leaves right now.

 

[0soyoung]

Yep, yep, yep, you are both correct. One must remove the apical meristem (the botanical name for the shoot tip) to induce branching/ramification. This isn’t the first time I’ve made an error, but I do hope that it isn’t the beginning of possible trends that go with being not so young now. I think I’ve figured out how I went down the rabbit hole on this and it seems plausible that others have gone down the hole for similar reasons.

I recall that I watched a video when I started my adventure toward ‘doing bonsai’ that advocated pinching out the shoot tip (apical meristem) of acer palmatum bonsai early in the spring so as to keep the branches from extending. A second video separately advocated defoliation. I’ve since seen articles and participated in discussions that didn’t connect these two things (in my recollection). I played with this in my first season of ‘doing bonsai’ and then moved on to growing trees to become bonsai and studying other horticultural topics as they arose in my activities. Despite spending quite a bit of time studying ‘canalization’ theory … [but I’m digressing (or is it regressing?)]

Pinching out the apical meristem in early spring will stop the shoot extension in the sense that no more nodes will be produced. If one then defoliates after the new leafs have hardened (removing at least the top-most [distal] leaf pair), one will usually get two new shoots, one from each bud of the top-most pair = ramification. However, if one didn’t pinch out the meristem, the apical meristem is unchanged and one only gets new leafs after some length of time – no ramification. Or, if you are still developing bonsai, let it grow and prune it does it all in one simple snip.

So, thanks for starting this discussion about ramification, Al. And thanks, Eric, for turning this into one of, if not the best for me, discussions on BNut.

– the travails of error.

 

[Eric Group]

Ummm you're welcome... Or I'm sorry?? LOL

It's all good guys, I love having these kinds of discussions as I think this is how a lot of good info gets posted on these forums!

 

[barrosinc]

Ummm you're welcome... Or I'm sorry?? LOL

It's all good guys, I love having these kinds of discussions as I think this is how a lot of good info gets posted on these forums!

This explains so much. I had chopped some branches and just got more leaves.

 

[Smoke]

Justin Case thanks you for the reprieve.

For the most part my other two bonsai buddies, Curt and Rod were laughing at him.

I have talked to Curt and Rod and they plan on writing a few articles for the Bunker soon.

 

[Smoke]

This explains so much. I had chopped some branches and just got more leaves.

You should read my blog more. It will make you sound knowledgeable.

 

[Eric Group]

You should read my blog more. It will make you sound knowledgeable.

It's true... Just ask Smoke!

 

[Smoke]

Remember that maple that I said would be leafless by the end of the month.....well its on its way.