Just a random thought

[ghues]

Judy Quote:
“Then, I realized that the feeling of working the tree is the same, no matter what the material. It gives a lift to see the shape come forward, or see a branches progression, or a trunk to be almost there... Especially some that did not start as great material, they can surprise you the most when they begin to come around.

I'll most likely still be desirous when I see a great bonsai, but now I know that it's in the motions of caring for and moving toward the best that the tree can be, that the heart of bonsai lies... “
Judy, this is an interesting post that for me could be split into two – acquiring masterpieces or turning your trees into show worthy material ….AND also I think you’ve touched on the process or working on trees and the enjoyment that it brings.
Bonsai isn’t my life (although my wife might think differently lol) but like you and most of the folks here I do enjoy the feeling I get (zen like state?) of working on my trees not only for the satisfaction it brings in the actual process (caring for) but also in moving it closer to one’s vision for the tree. So I’ll skip any discussion on the masterpiece train of thought and offer a viewpoint on the caring for ones trees:
I thought about this as I worked on my garden last night (deadheading azaleas and rhodo’s) … I came to the conclusion (for me) that this general process with its satisfaction and feelings can be incorporated into many (if not all) the things we do.
I’ll never have a garden fit for the pages of some prestigious magazine but that’s just fine… as I do enjoy even the mundane practices of dead heading, tilling, trimming, expanding, bring in new and unusual plants. Of course this goes with most things in life…the more you put into it the more you can get out of it Of course there are many folks (my son included) who don’t like gardening or bonsai but they do put in the same amount of effort in the things they do like and they get the same satification/feelings when the process comes to a close.
On Rob's idea - I can see his point but I'm not sure I buy into the fact that All bonsai reach a pinnacle in their life. In other words, there will be a time in a trees life that it will look the best it will ever look.that a tree will get to a point
I think that a tree may reach a vision of the owner but there is the possbility that a new owner would have a different vision and proceed to change its appearance/style.
Hope this makes sense?
Cheers
Graham

 

[Ron Dennis]

I would like to share some enlightening information that was given to me that many people have probably never heard before regarding masterpieces/finished trees. The owner of the nursery that I go to and sometimes work at gave me this bit of information. It was really something to think about. I will try to get the wording close to what he said. It was a while ago, so I can't remember it word for word.

We were discussing masterpieces and "finished trees" and he said...You may not really want to get finished trees/masterpieces. All bonsai reach a pinnacle in their life. In other words, there will be a time in a trees life that it will look the best it will ever look. Once it reaches this stage, it may/will decline over time. If you purchase one of these trees. There is really not much to do with it. In turn, the tree will probably only lose some of its appeal. However, when you purchase nice pre material, train it yourself and watch it become something. You have the pleasure of getting to see the tree rise to its best. You will be working with it constantly and you get to watch it get better and better under your care and guidance.

It was a very informative and invigorating conversation.

Rob

Rob, I have not been able to stop thinking about your friend's statement since I read it yesterday. Of course, trees are living and as such have a life span. We all know that many trees have a much longer life span than we do ourselves. Isn't aged appearance one of the key things we aim for in bonsai and do not many of us go out trying to collect those trees that have aged naturally? Only thnking out loud here but am not sure I totally understand his meaning--not disagreeing with his statement. It seems to me that even if a tree starts its decline there is still so much to be done. I am thinking how as our parents age and need our assistance the same is true of what the trees need.

I know trees will start to decline but am not sure my trees will do so in my remaining years. At least, I surely hope not.

Thanks for giving me a lot to ponder.

 

[Poink88]

Rob, I have not been able to stop thinking about your friend's statement since I read it yesterday. Of course, trees are living and as such have a life span. We all know that many trees have a much longer life span than we do ourselves. Isn't aged appearance one of the key things we aim for in bonsai and do not many of us go out trying to collect those trees that have aged naturally? Only thnking out loud here but am not sure I totally understand his meaning--not disagreeing with his statement. It seems to me that even if a tree starts its decline there is still so much to be done. I am thinking how as our parents age and need our assistance the same is true of what the trees need.

I know trees will start to decline but am not sure my trees will do so in my remaining years. At least, I surely hope not.

Thanks for giving me a lot to ponder.

Ron,

When you're on the top...there is no other way but down. Same applies to trees/bonsai. I know what you mean and no one really knows when a bonsai reaches its prime or pinnacle. Even deadwood created on its decline might make it a better looking bonsai. With age, some deteriorate badly...others improve gracefully and age just like fine wine.

 

[Attila Soos]

You may not really want to get finished trees/masterpieces. All bonsai reach a pinnacle in their life. In other words, there will be a time in a trees life that it will look the best it will ever look. Once it reaches this stage, it may/will decline over time. If you purchase one of these trees. There is really not much to do with it. In turn, the tree will probably only lose some of its appeal.

A tree will reach the pinnacle of their life after a couple of hundred years. In some cases, it is only one hundred years (for birches, it's about 80 years). In other cases, several hundred years. My California Junipers range between 150 and 300 years, and they take over the yard if I forget to pinch them, so their pinnacle is hundreds of years away. So, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Those Kokufu-ten masterpieces span many generations of bonsai masters, and they are routinely re-designed and overhauled.

Without trying to sound snide, owning trees that are too old are the least of our problems, as fare as we, westerners are concerned. Bonsai decline due to neglect, not due to age, 99.9% of the time.

Having said that, there is a chance that the nurseryman meant to say something completely different, but wasn't too explicit about it. There is a time in the life-cycle of every bonsai, when the old design ran its course, and certain features of the tree must be re-designed. Certain branches will get too thick, and out of proportion with the trunk. The tree gains in height. The apex gets too bulky, even after considerable thinning. Since the tree has to keep growing, these things cannot be stopped completely. This is why those Japanese masterpieces need to be re-designed sometimes, after looking the same for hundreds of years, and in-spite the fact that they are maintained by knowledgeable professionals.

So, the distinction here is, that a certain DESIGN will reach maturity and decline, not the tree, as a biological plant. This is where the importance of proper maintenance comes into play, which is an art in itself: we need to slow down the growth as much as possible, but not too much. Too much growth, and the design will be ruined in a few years. Too little growth, and the tree gets weak and dies. This is why, once a tree is more or less finished, a rigorous and systematic maintenance schedule needs to be followed. Most of us are not very familiar with this, since we are busy creating a design, rather than maintaining one. But in case of a masterpiece, proper maintenance is the key.

 

[Smoke]

My wife told me that I am about as good as I'm gonna get. That was about twenty years ago.... I have now entered the maintenance portion of life.

 

[Attila Soos]

My wife told me that I am about as good as I'm gonna get. That was about twenty years ago.... I have now entered the maintenance portion of life.

Just came from the pet store, where I bought dog food. They have a section of dog chow that they call "healthy maintenance" section, designed for old dogs. It's a nice word to make us feel better, instead of admitting the truth: crappy food, designed for old dogs, who cannot handle the good stuff anymore.

So, you are right, at our age, everything we eat and do is designed for "maintenance". The fun stuff is for the younger ones.

 

[amkhalid]

Not sure if I'm way off topic here as this thread seems pretty deep, but I had the opportunity to (start to) needle pluck a $12,000 shohin black pine during my short stint in Japan. I can tell you that the feeling was very different than working on my trees back home. It was probably the combination of 1) It was not my tree therefore mistakes weighed more heavily, and 2) I had never touched such a ramified pine. Even though the task was just needle plucking, I can assure you that it takes a whole new skill set just to move your hands through an insanely ramified little pine. It was also very difficult to distinguish the old needles from the new, except for the excessively long old ones. The whole ordeal was bloody terrifying and I abandoned the project for a less developed tree, since the owner was sitting there politely smiling but probably wondering why the hell this foreigner was touching his tree.

Anyway, my point is that to answer your question I think yes, there is a very different feeling associated with working on masterpiece-grade material. At least in the technical sense. Confidence and experience are a must.

Edit: here is the tree I am talking about if anyone is interested http://lakeshorebonsai.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/a-pricey-little-japanese-black-pine/

 

[crust]

I have worked on cool trees from others and have found myself less vested in them for some reason. They don't seem as fun to me, I know it just me. I have also let anothers great tree slide to the point where I don't think I will ever recover its state of design perfection--I feel horrible, and guilty. Yes, I have watched a great tree die too--it so sucks. I feel as though I have violated its creator--I just can't help it. Kind of the same; I have collected some great trees and watched some of these trees slowly wither and die. For these sorrows I am haunted and resist the vulnerability. My mouth watering covetous heart is hard to overcome not so much when it comes to others trees but when I find that exquisite one cradled in the pock of a grey ledge. It is then I tremble.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

My mouth watering covetous heart is hard to overcome ... when I find that exquisite one cradled in the pock of a grey ledge. It is then I tremble.

that about explains the feeling perfectly ....

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I've read this thread with great interest .... wondering if I would have anything to offer ... any comment to be made that might be considered additive in any fashion ... the truth is "probably not" ... but heck ... that's never stopped me before ....

I know the feeling that Judy describes well ... its one I feel often ... even as I have worked on great ancient trees and even what some might call "masterpieces" [i'll get to the later] I am still wrapped up in this feeling from time to time ... I see great material and great trees being shown and created and I feel this deep desire to work on that same level of material myself (not easy stuff to get mind you) ... I find myself wishing I had access to that same material (read: enough money [lets get real here] ) ... it's a tough feeling to overcome it can be crushing and over whelming (heck I've almost quit bonsai all together over it dozens of times) ... it can be a real crippling feeling and I find that when I walk outside and look at the trees I can usually find at least one that is really looking good and with a little effort I can talk myself into realizing that the work we have put into all these trees has really been worth it ... I can usually find at least one tree to cheer me up, which is good cuz they are supposed to make us happy right? ... not sure that ever goes away .... but I see it as a driving force for me ... something to work for ...

as for working on world class material ... yup its a whole other story ... after awhile you learn to chill out and remember that you know what you are doing ... and if you don't you can fake it ... during those moments I realize that I am learning how to work on my own trees once I get them to the levels where the work I am doing is appropriate ... I realize that I am learning how to get there too ... and then I remember that I am extraordinarily lucky and I feel a little sheepish

re: masterpiece -- I prefer the definition that sees a master piece as the work completed by a journeyman craftsman to gain entry to a masters guild ... so its one piece ... the piece that truly shows you've reached the highest levels of skill etc ... maybe I will never create one... that's okay (honestly does anyone actually recognize american trained artists as masters anyway?) .... maybe I will ...maybe I am working on that tree right now... I have no idea ...

I also understand many people use the term to reference a certain level of design and quality ... I can understand that reference as well

{with any luck ... there was a whole thought or two in the above comments}

 

[grouper52]

I'm curious - crust and others - when the "great ones" you collect or otherwise obtain die, what do you do with them?

I'm always surprised that I just leave some of them there in their pots as reminders or monuments to my time with them and to what they could have been, often evoking a not-altogether-pleasant, poignant feeling every time I see them, while others of similar past potential just get unceremoniously tossed onto the compost heap, and are never thought of again.

Sometimes the decision is initially made based on whether I need the pot right away, or whether I'm just feeling lazy or busy that day, and inertia plays a role in which ones stay and which get tossed. But often the decision seems to have some deeper - but poorly defined - import.

My own behavior in this regard is curious to me, and I'm wondering what others do and experience.

 

[Poink88]

I'm curious - crust and others - when the "great ones" you collect or otherwise obtain die, what do you do with them?

The only ones that died on me were collected or curb picked up trees (some most likely are dead when I got them). I am keeping the better trunk/stumps for possible carving practice...or maybe even a tanuki some day. I just take them out of their plastic training "pot" and toss them on a covered heap so they won't rot.

It still hurts looking at the nice ones though and I am debating whether it is better to just toss them all together or use them for practice and more importantly, be a constant reminder.

 

[fore]

I'm curious - crust and others - when the "great ones" you collect or otherwise obtain die, what do you do with them?

I had a collected Ponderosa Pine die on me this spring. I cut the branches off, jinned them, drilled a whole thru a piece of slate, and screwed the remaining trunk onto the slate. So now it's kinda a piece of 'natural art' lol I like it.

 

[davetree]

I'm curious - crust and others - when the "great ones" you collect or otherwise obtain die, what do you do with them?

Dead trees get the Viking funeral at my house. Often I let them sit in the pot for a while first. Helps me reflect on my own mortality.

 

[JudyB]

I do a discus type throw over the fence and into the woods. heavier trees can go preeeetty far. But I've never had anything really good die, just some collected stuff that was marginal material anyway.

I imagine it's truly heartbreaking to have something that you've cared for, and grown up, that is marvelous material die for whatever reason. I've even felt bad about my mediocre plants when they go.

Will, what is it that makes you torture yourself by keeping them? Is it a self punishment for their demise???

 

[Attila Soos]

I'm curious - crust and others - when the "great ones" you collect or otherwise obtain die, what do you do with them?

I don't do the discus-type throw, but I do admit to the basketball-type throw: just trying to hit the tall compost-can. Before I do it, though, I shake off the soil from between the roots: I don't like to waste any soil.
No, I'm just kidding, I don't throw them like that, just slowly, painfully, lower them into the bin. Sort of, like a funeral, when the coffin is lowered into the ground. And yes, it hurts a lot.
But I do it as fast as I can, because I couldn't bear looking at the tree for another day. The agony, however, can last for months, since trees sometimes die very slowly, and I have to watch them helplessly as they wither away. This is why I throw them away in a heartbeat, once I decided that they are gone. I would find it very alarming, if I preferred torturing myself any longer....like I wasn't punished enough already, and I needed some more punishment from myself, of all people. And I'd rather not collect trophies of my mistakes.

 

[Attila Soos]

Is it a self punishment for their demise???

In that case, I recommend the catholic-type self-flagellation(not to confuse with flatulation). It's better to go all out, and then move on.

 

[grouper52]

In that case, I recommend the catholic-type self-flagellation(not to confuse with flatulation). It's better to go all out, and then move on.

I can see where there may be a bit of similarity between going "all out" with either flatulation OR self-flagellation.

I don't consider it "torture" to keep a dead tree around, but it is a rather poignantly reflective exercise that taps into some sort of deeper mystery that I don't have a good word for. I really have no rational explanation for it, but it sits well with me in some primitive way. I'll report more after I've had a chance to stare longer at my navel.

 

[Smoke]

........ but it sits well with me in some primitive way. I'll report more after I've had a chance to stare longer at my navel.

This guy is deep......

 

[grouper52]

More, or less

The navel says to convey the following:

"The hands of my watch are the trees of time."

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.