Kanorin's "Azalea 2020-2025" entry

Pitoon

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Thanks, Leo. I can feel that you are rooting for my little plant to pull through :). I definitely appreciate you taking the time to give advice and encouragement!

I'm glad that you, I and several other members above have all come to the same conclusion. When I try azaleas again, I'll make sure at least 50% of my mix is kanuma or some very highly water retentive substrate AND I'll give it some afternoon shade. Even the third azalea plant that I planted in the ground in full sun got all of it's leaves burnt off. The weather did do a very sharp turn from cloudy/rainy in the 60's and 70's, to 2-3 days in a row of full sun, 90+ degrees. I have 3 other azaleas in my landscape that get afternoon shade and they pulled through.

Maybe if I see an interesting azalea at when I go out to the stores this week I'll give it another shot, even if I'm just competing for honorable mention.

On the bright side, I think I've learned more about keeping azaleas in pots from having this plant die on me than if it had lived this season. Sometimes failure is a great teacher.
That's the whole purpose of this contest.....to learn. Now you know what to do and not do from that mishap. Get yourself another one and enter it into the contest. Looking forward to seeing what you find.
 

rawlyn

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But most azalea dislike high salts in their soil. So they don't grow well near the ocean (R.tamurae being the exception).

How serious a problem is this? I live about 150 meters from the ocean, and there are lots of beautiful azaleas in the yards of my neighbors. Is it something that requires more frequent repotting, soil additives, etc. to address when the plant is in a pot instead of the ground? (Thanks in advance)
 

Harunobu

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Not entirely sure. I have heard people mention that some rhododendron in general don't do well when every once in a while there is a storm bringing a bunch of seawater with the wind, increasing the salt content of the soils. I guess if there are azalea that thrive in your neighborhood, maybe I will have to question this, or it comes with caveats. I can definitely see how a soil that has been exposed to the sea for a really long time does worse. But I guess it depends on how violent the sea can get in that area. Do you get saltwater spray when the sea is rough and the wind is strong? Maybe it is not an issue when you replace the original soil with garden soil.

A quick google did bring up this:
"Those in my plantings have maintained good leaf form despite hurricane Gloria (October 1985) which blew for four hours off the sea with no rain. There was considerable salt deposit, and a bite into an apple felled by the wind was most distasteful. The salt resistance of all my azaleas was better than expected and none succumbed."

From someone growing in New England.

Maybe azalea do way better than rhododendron in general, with many azalea being form Japan and many rhododendron from the Himalaya area. And this seasalt thing is something for which azalea actually have more resistance than expected. Your neighbors azalea may be one more bit of evidence.

But isn't it a general problem with some plants that you already know about, living so near the ocean? I don't live anywhere near, so I am quite ignorant about it.
 

rawlyn

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We do get enough salt mist in the air to smell regularly, as well as steady winds off the water, and snow melts sooner here than it does a few hundred meters inland. Still the trees, shrubs, grass, and other vegetation in my neighborhood all appear to be more or less the same as one might find well inland. The house between mine and the water has two very large and impressive azaleas that have unobstructed lines of sight to the water. I have no idea what cultivar, and the person who planted them died many years ago. There are many large rhododendrons thriving throughout the neighborhood as well.

Things really change only when you get within 20 meters or so of the high tide mark. At that point you do start to see noticeable differences in the relative distribution of wild plant species - and greatly reduced average height as well. But even the lots that are truly waterfront have lawns of conventional grass and apparently normal vegetable gardens right up to the edge of the beach. My longtime next-door neighbor was very knowledgeable about gardening and had lived here for about fifty years, and never mentioned any species as known to be susceptible to problems because of our micro climate.

But, the bay is an estuary, and isn’t normally as rough as, say, an exposed rocky point on an unprotected open ocean shoreline.

I’ll just have to keep a close eye on the azaleas in pots in case the salt can accumulate over time.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@rawlyn - The azaleas in the landscape near your home do indicate you should not have trouble with salt spray affecting your bonsai. The fact you can water with clear water right after a "storm event" where they might have gotten sea spray is also helpful. I would not worry about it, because if they thrive in the landscape they should be fine in pots in your backyard.

@Harunobu - the climate @Kanorin deals with is much more extreme than EU conditions. From June thru to September, routinely, meaning 4 days a week temperatures will be above 32 C, (90 F) with sometimes 4 or 5 day long episodes of 38 C (100 F) or higher daytime highs. This is much warmer than "continental Europe". The high humidity and regular rainfall make it much wetter than any Mediterranean climate. Then the Saint Louis winters are cold compared to most EU climates, with temperatures regularly dipping below -12 C with the occasional drop to - 20 C (-5 F).

@Kanorin - glad you are going to get back on the horse and try again. Do keep in mind that if you try peat as a potting medium, that Harunobu's warning is spot on that peat based mixes require yearly repotting. Or at least every other year. Key with a peat based mix. When the peat dries out it shrinks and compacts. When you re-wet the peat, it doesn't wet easily, requires a good soaking. The compaction that happened as it dries out does not reverse itself when re-wet. It stays compacted. In fact, each time you dry out a peat based mix it will compact even further. Each time you re-wet the peat mix, there is minimal expansion. If you dry your mix out half a dozen times over the summer, you can end up with a very tight block of peat mix, with no air voids, the compaction blocks air penetration to the roots, and then when the wetter winter weather comes, the wet mix will bring on anoxic root rots.

The key to using peat based potting mixes is to NEVER let them get bone dry. Always try to keep them at least lightly damp. You want to avoid the shrinking and compacting that happens when a peat mix dries out. If you are diligent keeping a peat based mix wet, you can go 2 or 3 years between repotting. But if you are like me, and a little haphazard in your care, you will have to repot every year to get the compacted peat off the roots.

While straight Kanuma is considered an inorganic mix, azaleas do quite well in it. If you have access to kanuma, for example if you can get a hold of David Kreutz, or the St. Louis bonsai society, (they meet at MBG). I would only add pumice or perlite to Kanuma, at 50:50, or just use the Kanuma as 100% for your mix. You do not need an organic component. Kanuma does hold enough water that you don't need an "organic" to hold water.

For other mixes, the organics are used partly because they hold a lot of water. Also, bark in particular, as it decomposes tends to create a mildly acidic media in the ideal range for azalea.

The reason I am so familiar with St. Louis weather is I have family there, who I visit 6 times or more a year. My folks are in a "facility", in Ballwin, as is a sister, a few nieces and nephews and they all have a bunch of kids I am quite close to, and somewhat fond of. So I visit the area often. I refuse to live there, it is too hot in summer for me. LOL.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Then there's the 150% humidity and the nasty gnats that want to fly in your eyes, that we've had the last couple years. What's not to like?;)
Hey Carol,
Try not to get jealous, its 68 F, with sun, and breezy, at 11 am today. Humidity is probably down around 50%. Very, very pleasant. Sure you don't want to move north? If you come to Southwestern Michigan, you could even have more mild winters than Chicago-land. With milder summers. At the farm, 9 miles east of South Haven, Michigan, we have had ZERO days over 90 F in the 5 years I've been spending time there. And in winter, the farm is always 5 F warmer than the weather in Chicago.
 

Pitoon

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Any updates? You plan on adding a new entry?
 

Pitoon

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Be sure to post pics in its raw state to start
 

Kanorin

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Watch out, nutters, @Kanorin got a new azalea contest entry and it is a tangled mess! The over/under for how long it takes me to kill this one is hovering around 4 weeks last I checked.

There were slim pickings at the nursery for azaleas as I imagine they don't sell well post blooming season. So I got this azalea 'Joseph Hill,' which is a more creeping, low to the ground growing type with coral red flowers (red with a slight hint of orange).
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Based on how half of the foliar mass of this guys is growing down below the lip of the can, I'm thinking this one wants to be a cascade or semi-cascade...in time.

Given the time of year, I don't think I'm gonna do more than some light pruning to cut out the dead branches and some areas where lots of branches are criss crossing.
I'm wondering if I should put this thing in the ground and plan to do the root pruning and trunk selection next spring...thoughts?
 

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Forsoothe!

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I do major work when plants are in full tilt boogie growing season, and for Azalea that's now even though May would have been better. I would clean out deadwood, reduce the roots by 40-50% and repot in a round clay pot, and let it grow in bright shade for the balance of the year while I thought about styling it. As I establish in my mind's eye a pathway I would be reducing superfluous branches here and there. By next spring I would have finalized the ultimate design in my mind and would then reduce the whole enchilada to a class A pot to grow to the finished design in the next 4 years. Or at least a solid 2nd place...
 

Harunobu

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Maybe create a new thread for the new plant? To prevent confusion (and to not have to look at the sadly departed plant).

Yeah, this is a R.nakaharae hybrid and they creeping, ground covering. Even my 25% nakaharae seedlings, most of them grow branches almost horizontal as a whirl emerging from the roots. I think that in general maybe these things are good for a raft style since they naturally put out a raft-style multi-trunk system. The challenge then is to wire the shoots growing from the backbone either very straight up for a contract, or something more organic/freeflowing so you have the stereotypical raft style trunk well defined from the actual branches.

Cascade should work. Not sure about this one, but some of these cultivar can be grown from hanging baskets, and they will weep downward naturally. Might be that Joseph Hill isn't that strong of a creeper, not that familiar with this one specifically. You can still go in and prune, but the risk of direct sunlight killing new buds is even larger. You'd have to put it in full shade. But you put it in your garden already? The mulch looks nice. I would go in and prune away things that could cause reverse taper. Look at the trunk & branch structure and if there is something that is going to cause problems, just prune it to a stump to stop if fattening. Some of those shoots with 5 or more branch whirls on them are going to elongate a lot more in your growing season, flattening up that part of the trunk a little bit more. Specifically look for branches that are fat and emerge from the same spot, and cut back one of them. They will backbud in the shade of the canopy. And likely, you won't be using them anyway. Just to stop the problematic areas from getting worse.
 

Pitoon

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Just continue on with this thread, remember this is all a learning process for a majority of members that have entries.

There's no need to have multiple threads in the same contest for the same person.
 

Kanorin

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Yeah, this is a R.nakaharae hybrid and they creeping, ground covering. Even my 25% nakaharae seedlings, most of them grow branches almost horizontal as a whirl emerging from the roots. I think that in general maybe these things are good for a raft style since they naturally put out a raft-style multi-trunk system. The challenge then is to wire the shoots growing from the backbone either very straight up for a contract, or something more organic/freeflowing so you have the stereotypical raft style trunk well defined from the actual branches.

Cascade should work. Not sure about this one, but some of these cultivar can be grown from hanging baskets, and they will weep downward naturally. Might be that Joseph Hill isn't that strong of a creeper, not that familiar with this one specifically. You can still go in and prune, but the risk of direct sunlight killing new buds is even larger. You'd have to put it in full shade. But you put it in your garden already? The mulch looks nice. I would go in and prune away things that could cause reverse taper. Look at the trunk & branch structure and if there is something that is going to cause problems, just prune it to a stump to stop if fattening. Some of those shoots with 5 or more branch whirls on them are going to elongate a lot more in your growing season, flattening up that part of the trunk a little bit more. Specifically look for branches that are fat and emerge from the same spot, and cut back one of them. They will backbud in the shade of the canopy. And likely, you won't be using them anyway. Just to stop the problematic areas from getting worse.
Thanks for the tips! I haven't put it into the ground yet - it's just that you can't see the black nursery can well behind all of those branches that are flowing over the sides.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Good luck with this new entry!

I've been watching you learn a lot from your earlier effort. You are getting advice from some of the very best here I see, so I'll go light. Here's some quick info on your entry.

Joseph Hill is a hardy, dense trailing azalea, often sold as a groundcover, that grows twice as wide as high in normal growing conditions.

Cheers
DSD sends
 

Harunobu

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Given enough time, some of those will be 50 times (or more) as wide as high. They kinda have a limit on how high they grow, but given space, they will keep covering more ground, layer new roots on their creeping branches, and keep covering more and more. Actually quite different from all other azalea species. But I suspect that Joseph Hill may be among the more upright ones, among these creeping azalea.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Good Morning!

The azalea Joseph Hill is a Polly Hill azalea, from the North Tisbury area of Cape Cod. This is an awesome article written by the incredible Polly Hill, who helped prove and create your azalea and many others!

Article on breeding new varieties azaleas by the Incredible Polly Hill! and About Polly Hill.

I think it’s really worth at least a winter read. @Harunobu and @Leo in N E Illinois might be interested also.

Cheers
DSD sends
 
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