Kushida Matsuo's growing techniques

Brian Van Fleet

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I've done it at this stage with no problem; use a SHARP knife and keep them out of the wind.

If not with these, start some new seeds this year and use your current pines as "practice" for growing them out.
 

Thomas J.

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It's my understanding that the main reason for cutting the root system off and basically making a cutting out of a seedling is to get the lower branches closer to the root system for shohin trees. Of course you also have the benefit of working the root system then to get a nice flare as in this photo. Also notice how close the lower branches are to the root base. Most people will do the cutting of the roots and applying the rooting hormone not long after the seeds have sprouted into seedlings. I guess it's possible to do it later, but it usually isn't done that way.:D
 

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Just to clarify, I have ordered seeds (Red Pine, Black Pine, White Pine, and Trident Maple) to use for that purpose, as closely as I can to follow Kushida Matsuo's techniques. So as far as he original method goes, I will use seedlings.

However, I also had those other, older seedlings, that I'm not too sure what to do with at this point. The two in the pots I'm just going to let grow. They will do fine (although I do need to start wiring them/styling them into a shape that I would like, and I need to do that soon). The ones in the ground are the plants I don't know what to do with. They clearly need to be put in containers to increase their growth, but I was just wondering if I would be better off to use this technique on them as well, or rather just repot them. If I'm going to repot them, and not use the method, what would be the best method of developing lateral roots? Could I chop off the lower roots (not all of them though), apply some root hormone and repot?
 

Bill S

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Just to go back to the growth difference, 2 things you mentioned are 1/2 day sun, and you don't water them, are huge advantages you give the ones in pots.

Pines will "stall" a bit (1-2 years ) sometimes to grow roots, then the tops will respond. But I understand you are looking at the colender method. Every thing you read says pines like dry soil, if you go colenders water the crap out of them, but make sure its a well draining soil.
 

sfhellwig

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The "seedling as a cutting method" is absolutely for radial root development and I believe would be done that early because anything larger may not tolerate that treatment, although someone has stated that it does work for that size. This method is to "do it right" in the first place instead of trying to fix it later. It also helps keep branches low for Shohin production but is important for development of any sized tree. If you will not use this method on your present trees, you could grow them on and down the road do a ground layer to induce new radially placed roots. IF pines can handle ground layers. I don't know if they can but a series of photos on a deciduous tree showed a difficult to repair nebari replaced in a few seasons. Starting over indeed but well worth it. Pines may be too difficult to make it worth it.

The other thing to do with the ground trees is Leave them alone. Let this years candle extend fully and hope for multiple buds. This years growth might be enough to fuel the root system and next year they may surpass the potted plants entirely. Lifting them now might disturb the roots enough to take them off line in their establishment process (mentioned above). But it depends on what you want (fast growth or compact growth).
 
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2 things you mentioned are 1/2 day sun, and you don't water them, are huge advantages you give the ones in pots.

No doubt. But it's either grow them where they are (in the ground), grow them in containers, or don't grow them at all.

Given all of the factors, the pines in the area have taken off without any human assistance. That is why I assumed the seedlings would do the same. However, I guess I underestimated how little light and water they were receiving. I guess I should just pot them.

if you go colenders water the crap out of them, but make sure its a well draining soil.

Thanks for the advice. After reading up on it, I figured growing in a colander would be just about the same as growing in an air pot, smart pot, or root builder pot. I took a trip to the local hydro shop, and they carried a 3 gallon rootbuilder, and a 2 gallon smart pot. I'm going to try each of those (by transplanting the two pot bound seedlings in there) to see how they work. I needed to switch to a more draining soil anyway.

But it depends on what you want (fast growth or compact growth).

So, if I wanted faster growth, you would recommend leaving them in the ground? And if I wanted more compact growth, disrupt their root system and repot them?
 

sfhellwig

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So, if I wanted faster growth, you would recommend leaving them in the ground? And if I wanted more compact growth, disrupt their root system and repot them?

Under normal conditions, this is what one would expect. In your particular situation it is exactly backward. Your potted material is growing well (probably sun, water and aeration) whereas your ground stock is growing slowly. Which do you want? If you want larger stock and are willing to fight the internode length and ramify later then lift and pot them. If you plan on keeping these small and want to do the "build it right the first time" deal then leave them in the ground. They will grow slower due to position or take off in a few years but for now you will be building a shorter, hopefully denser tree. One that will need less correction later on. The choice is yours. Unfortunately with so few subjects to work with I'm not sure you will be able to measure your results one way or the other short of "they survived."
 

pwk5017

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Can someone confirm or deny that groundlayering pines works?
 
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If you plan on keeping these small and want to do the "build it right the first time" deal then leave them in the ground. They will grow slower due to position or take off in a few years but for now you will be building a shorter, hopefully denser tree.

While shorter, denser trees are certainly my goal (as opposed to quick & lanky). However, based on the growth rate in the past year and a half, I've seen almost no growth. At this rate, it would probably take about 60-80 years to produce something worth while. This is usually a good time frame for an excellent bonsai, however I won't be around that long.

So, I'll probably end up potting them for now.
 
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I went ahead and dug up the black pine seedling, and put it in a 4" pot for now. It was harder to dig it up than I thought it was. There were a bunch of roots from other trees crossing in, and the ground was very sandy in some spots, and clay in others. I dug out about a two foot in diameter circle around the seedling, and about one foot down. Then I washed away all the soil and ended up with enough roots to fit in a shot glass. I tried to be as gentle as possible, but I'm not sure how much of it's roots I accidentally destroyed.

Because the one seedling was harder than I though, I'm not sure if it will make it or not. I'm giving it extra water, and placing it in a shaded area for a few days. Hopefully it pulls through. Because there is a chance it won't, I'm waiting to dig up the other four. I would hate to end up with 0/5 making it.
 
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Other than the seedlings, I would like to try this technique on plants grown from seed. So I went ahead and ordered some red, white, and black pine seeds (along with some Trident Maples for another purpose).

I could get the white & black pines from one retailer, but had to go to another to get the red pine seeds. The red pine seeds came in first.

The package recommends cold stratifying for 60 days. However, the guy running the experiment: http://bonsaistudygroup.com/japanes...growing-mikawa-japanese-black-pine-from-seed/ lives in the same area as I do (or close enough). He just mentions to first

Soak seed in water for 48-72 hours.

Then

Now plant one or two seeds per cell.

He doesn't appear to cold stratify at all.

Another website: http://www.bonsaitreeforums.com/for...mation-on-seed-stratification-and-Germination claims that

Pinus densiflora Japanese red pine PC4

Which means

These seeds are not actually dormant, but will germinate faster if given a moist chilling (or pre-chilling) at 0-2°C for 4 weeks.

So, do I actually need to cold stratify them? If so, for how long?

The only reason I ask, is I'm not sure if I can get them to work if they need a cold stratification of 60 days. That would put them outside and in the ground in May, sprouting probably closer to June. This is the hottest time of the year in NC (or getting there), which means they will have to struggle with the heat when they sprout.

My other option is to refrigerate them now, and wait till next year, but the supplier says they are only viable for about a year. That would mean refrigerating them past their viability, or right up to it.
 
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kevin

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Soak the seeds overnight, and then mix them with a bit of damp peat, put them in the fridge for at least a month or so before you plant them. I've actual found I have better success with them sprouting and growing in the early summer, plus the root cutting also works early in the second year once the seedling turn green again after their dull winter color.
Good luck!
 
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I always saw pine seeds without stratification.

I would like to discuss the pics you have shown in messages #16 and 17. To me, they show a rather slow development.
My pics show the development of some japanese red pines (I had a batch of around 20 trees).
First pic is at the spring one year after sowing, second one year after, and third another year after. Growth was good, all my trees where between 70 and 90 cm tall. If only I had wired and twisted them from the beginning !
Too me, your pots are too big for the size of the seedlings and the substrate not fast draining enough. There is a delicate balance to obtain optimal growth with pine : they should not lack water at any time while being sensitive to root rot.
 

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I always saw pine seeds without stratification.

That's what I've been hearing, some say they stratify pine seeds, others say it isn't necessary.

Do you mind going over your process? What is your sprout rate?

they show a rather slow development.

I think I would be inclined to agree. :)

Too me, your pots are too big for the size of the seedlings and the substrate not fast draining enough. There is a delicate balance to obtain optimal growth with pine : they should not lack water at any time while being sensitive to root rot.

Funny you should mention that. I spent the day today repotting my two seedlings that were already potted. Unfortunately, in the past I was told that if I was just growing them out, the soil type didn't matter. I was told that the "garden soil" they sell would work fine. They were incorrect. It holds way too much moisture.

So I repotted one into a 2 gal smart pot, and the other into a 3 gal Rootbuilder pot. Both were potted into a mixture that I made after researching on the internet (15% sifted peat moss, 45% permatill, 10% sand, 15% pumice, 15% turface). I don't think I'm going to have a problem with root rot with that mixture. I'll just have to up the watering to make sure they don't dry out, especially with the air pots.

So what do you think?

Need pictures?
 
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I don't really know my sprout rate because it was 9 years ago but I bought one sachet as I was travelling in Japan (the label did instruct to saw them directly) and had a about 20 trees.
The substrate I used was 20% neutrilized peat moss and 80 % lava rock (I don't see the interest of mixing more composants) so quite close to your's and I can garantee you that you can induce easily root rot with mine if you water to much, especially during spring when temperatures are not so high. Much less risk in summer. Of course, this applys for my oceanic climate.
 
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(the label did instruct to saw them directly)

Who knows what my lebel says. Its in japanese :) The distributor covered it up with an english label, suggesting a stratify time of 60 days, but I don't know how accurate that is.

I can garantee you that you can induce easily root rot with mine if you water to much, especially during spring when temperatures are not so high.

I don't doubt it is possible to overwater with that mix, my question was more of the mix combined with the air pots. With those two, I doubt overwatering is a real probability.

Still trying to decide if I should cold strat though . . .
 
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I don't have a scanner, but hopefully my pictures will leave you enough resolution to see what it says.

Here is a pic of what the label looked like.

IMG_20110320_161710.jpg


And here is a picture when the label is removed.

IMG_20110320_162432.jpg


I'm not sure if you can read it, so I did a close up of the top half and the bottom half. Here is the top half.

IMG_20110320_162442.jpg


The bottom half wouldn't upload through photobucket, so I just attached it here.

Is the label close?
 

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