Layering substrate by size in a pot...

[M. Frary]

New Zealand spaghnum

Is this different than the sphagnum I collect here?

 

[Adair M]

Is this different than the sphagnum I collect here?

Probably.

 

[M. Frary]

Probably.

Dam that fancy down under New Zealand moss!
It gets all the glory.

 

[markyscott]

This makes me wonder about the effect of a root population on AFP - does the AFP go up with the population of roots in the substrate or go down? With a non-compacting substrate, 'fat' roots can push the particles apart, possibly increasing the AFP; 'thin' roots conceivably could reduce the AFP. If root diameters were the same as the average pore size, AFP wouldn't be affected.

I suspect that AFP increases with root population of Turface MVP (chem fert, no poo). It would be interesting to know but seems inhibitively troublesome to measure with a bonsai.

Have you given any thought to this sort of insanity? Is there a practical way to have an indicator measure, or is 'its draining slowly' or 'the foliage is looking sickly' all there is?

It's funny that the same folks who will tell you that you need good drainage will poo poo the notion of air-filled porosity. It amounts to the same exact thing except "good drainage" can't be measured, but "good AFP" can. It's very clear that, as a general rule, less than 10% AFP and your soil is waterlogged - plant growth suffers. Too long under these conditions and plants will die (minus a couple of notable exceptions that have adapted to surviving these conditions). Increase your AFP and plant growth will increase. Ask yourself, what "drainage speed" is dangerous? What is good? Folks will think about it or not - plants don't care either way.

Anyway, I built my porometer (referenced in the previous post) to give an easy "home remedy" solution to measure AFP. Here's an additional reference for more detail:

http://www.nurserycropscience.info/...k2009measureafp-proc-sna.pdf/at_download/file

I have to admit, I've only measured fresh substrate components and mixtures. For these, the major control on aeration is clearly grain size and pot depth. Fine grain size and shallow pots results in very low AFP. I honestly have no idea what the effect of roots will be, but I imagine it's not straight forward. How to measure with roots? Can you take a plug?

Scott

 

[wireme]

It's funny that the same folks who will tell you that you need good drainage will poo poo the notion of air-filled porosity. It amounts to the same exact thing except "good drainage" can't be measured, but "good AFP" can. It's very clear that, as a general rule, less than 10% AFP and your soil is waterlogged - plant growth suffers. Too long under these conditions and plants will die (minus a couple of notable exceptions that have adapted to surviving these conditions). Increase your AFP and plant growth will increase. Folks will think about it or not - plants don't care either way.

Anyway, I built my porometer (referenced in the previous post) to give an easy "home remedy" solution to measure AFP. Here's an additional reference for more detail:

http://www.nurserycropscience.info/...k2009measureafp-proc-sna.pdf/at_download/file

I have to admit, I've only measured fresh substrate components and mixtures. For these, the major control on aeration is clearly grain size and pot depth. Fine grain size and shallow pots results in very low AFP. I honestly have no idea what the effect of roots will be, but I imagine it's not straight forward. How to measure with roots? Can you take a plug?

Scott

Could you not just plug the drain holes as oso suggested then follow the same procedure you outlined in that turface thread that you linked to earlier? Use the pot itself as the graduated cylinder?

I think it would be very interesting to measure AFP over time as roots develop, ingredients break down etc.,,

 

[markyscott]

Could you not just plug the drain holes as oso suggested then follow the same procedure you outlined in that turface thread that you linked to earlier? Use the pot itself as the graduated cylinder?

I think it would be very interesting to measure AFP over time as roots develop, ingredients break down etc.,,

That should probably work. You'll need to know the total volume of soil as best as you can measure it. Then plug the holes and measure the amount of water required to lift the water level to the top of the soil. That volume divided by the total soil volume is the porosity. Then take out the plug and measure the water that drains out. That volume divided by the total soil volume is the AFP. Easy Peasy.

It would be interesting to see - good idea oso!

Scott

 

[wireme]

That should probably work. You'll need to know the total volume of soil as best as you can measure it. Then plug the holes and measure the amount of water required to lift the water level to the top of the soil. That volume divided by the total soil volume is the porosity. Then take out the plug and measure the water that drains out. That volume divided by the total soil volume is the AFP. Easy Peasy.

It would be interesting to see - good idea oso!

Scott

It would be very interesting.
So, use dimensions of the inside soil filled portion of the pot to get cm3 then covert to millilitres for soil volume?

 

[markyscott]

It would be very interesting.
So, use dimensions of the inside soil filled portion of the pot to get cm3 then covert to millilitres for soil volume?

Yes sir - as best as you can measure it. Units don't matter as long as you're consistent.

Let us know what you find.

Scott

 

[Woodland Spirit]

One huge problem I am having with all this, OK so it's a tiny issue or maybe just a technicality.

We can make all sorts of measurements and calculations and they would be great...

In a laboratory with exact clones.

Really it's only useful to get a rough guess.
Every species, every genetic variation is going to have it's own ideal. An ideal you can't find with a calculator. Air presence, air flow, water volume, space for the roots, knowing all this doesn't mean it can be put into practice.
And I don't know of a source of precision soil...

All I'm saying is bonsai has been around a long time and people have found what works. Maybe it's not perfect, but it works.
Rant ended.

Continue...

 

[Anthony]

If you are willing to do as the Japanese did and winterize, then a porous pot will work best.
We use the Chinese glazed on the outside, but not underneath pots for some shrubs e.g the Chinese Serissa.
Lost one last year due to, too much water retention, during the rainy season.

A simple porous earthenware pot - breathes - and ends most problems.
In the old days, down here the property to wick water away was used for water containers and evaporation
to keep drinking water cool.

In China and Japan there were so many potters and no minimum wage [ in the olden days ] that pots
could be replaced - cheaply.
Aint mechanization great?
Good Day
Anthony

* If I lived in a zone 7 I would winterize, and in a zone 4 or so get a cold room [ built off of a fridge system ]
Technology is my slave.

 

[M. Frary]

zone 4

You would probably just up and die Anthony. Ever been through a zone 4 winter?

 

[Cadillactaste]

If it's a large tree and pot, Boon will place a drainage layer of pumice on the bottom. Most medium to small bonsai it's not needed. Most bonsai get the Main Mix size of soil. Smaller deciduous and shohin trees get the smaller sized mix. Only rarely does he place small soil on top of a regular size main mix. It's is more likely he may put a layer of chopped New Zealand spaghnum moss on top if he feels the tree needs more water.

Really, everyone is WAY overthinking this. Keep it simple.

Kind of what Judy does then...keeping the size of medium to go with specific size trees.

 

[Anthony]

Mike,

sorry, zone 6 to 7 was my limit.
I get bored easily with winter, not the cold, I can create warm rooms, but the confinement.
Yup, I would probably just die of boredom.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[markyscott]

One huge problem I am having with all this, OK so it's a tiny issue or maybe just a technicality.

We can make all sorts of measurements and calculations and they would be great...

In a laboratory with exact clones.

Really it's only useful to get a rough guess.
Every species, every genetic variation is going to have it's own ideal. An ideal you can't find with a calculator. Air presence, air flow, water volume, space for the roots, knowing all this doesn't mean it can be put into practice.
And I don't know of a source of precision soil...

All I'm saying is bonsai has been around a long time and people have found what works. Maybe it's not perfect, but it works.
Rant ended.

Continue...

You have a pinyon planted in peat moss. Perhaps soon you will be telling us about the benefits of proper aeration.

Scott

 

[M. Frary]

Mike,

sorry, zone 6 to 7 was my limit.
I get bored easily with winter, not the cold, I can create warm rooms, but the confinement.
Yup, I would probably just die of boredom.
Good Day
Anthony

If you ever want to come up,I have an extra room. There are lots of things to keep a guy warm outside. And the winter views are truly spectacular. Plus it makes it so spring is a wonderful thing.
Spring looks to be early this year. Already saw a skunk. Michigan groundhog.

 

[Adair M]

If you ever want to come up,I have an extra room. There are lots of things to keep a guy warm outside. And the winter views are truly spectacular. Plus it makes it so spring is a wonderful thing.
Spring looks to be early this year. Already saw a skunk. Michigan groundhog.

Oh geez, we get skunks, too! Had one crawl into the dryer vent. He got in, but couldn't get out. This was about 2 am.

Our dryer vents down thru a hole in the floor, then the duct runs across the ceiling in the basement then out. He couldn't turn around to crawl out. Eventually, I disconnected the dryer, attached some more flexible ducting to the floor, and ran the other end out the window of the laundry room. After some prodding, he crawled into to flexible duct. I crimped it behind him so he couldn't back up. He wouldn't crawl out, so I disconnected it from the floor, and tossed it out the window! He still wouldn't come out of the tube. I had to lift it up and shake him out!

It was a white skunk! I wish I had a picture. Only totally white one I've ever seen. He ambled away. Took about two hours from beginning of adventure to end!

 

[M. Frary]

Oh geez, we get skunks, too! Had one crawl into the dryer vent. He got in, but couldn't get out. This was about 2 am.

Our dryer vents down thru a hole in the floor, then the duct runs across the ceiling in the basement then out. He couldn't turn around to crawl out. Eventually, I disconnected the dryer, attached some more flexible ducting to the floor, and ran the other end out the window of the laundry room. After some prodding, he crawled into to flexible duct. I crimped it behind him so he couldn't back up. He wouldn't crawl out, so I disconnected it from the floor, and tossed it out the window! He still wouldn't come out of the tube. I had to lift it up and shake him out!

It was a white skunk! I wish I had a picture. Only totally white one I've ever seen. He ambled away. Took about two hours from beginning of adventure to end!

Nasty creatures. Giant stinky weasels. We had one in the garage at our old house. Wouldn't come out for nothing until my wife tossed mothballs in.

 

[0soyoung]

Really it's only useful to get a rough guess.

Based on a bit of data, instead of assumptions.

My interest in this is that I've had troubles over watering for the first few weeks after repotting. After a few weeks of being very careful, I seemingly cannot over water - that purported property of modern substate returns!

So, for now, I am just after a relative measure in the pot in my garden. A little data is always useful.

My name is 0soyoung. I am a Turface user. ​

 

[M. Frary]

My name is 0soyoung. I am a Turface user.

So excellent.

 

[Woodland Spirit]

You have a pinyon planted in peat moss. Perhaps soon you will be telling us about the benefits of proper aeration.

Scott

There's no peat moss in that. Not ideal soil But they tell me to let it be, don't repot ect. It must not be to bad. I may well tell someone about good aeration one of these days. Every day, every mistake, every success brings more knowledge.
I knew the soil was wrong, if you read carefully you'll see that.

I admit my line is more in the orchard.

Based on a bit of data, instead of assumptions.

My interest in this is that I've had troubles over watering for the first few weeks after repotting. After a few weeks of being very careful, I seemingly cannot over water - that purported property of modern substate returns!

So, for now, I am just after a relative measure in the pot in my garden. A little data is always useful.

My name is 0soyoung. I am a Turface user. ​

I'm not saying it's irrelevant, just that there is a point where the level of precision becomes irrelevant.
A relative measure is fine.

BTW in nursery plants I raise the pot above the water in the tray and use a wick. Never over watered that way, although they still die if you forget to add water. I still flush the pots once in a while or they get salted.