penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
I could not disagree more. First job, 13 years old at nursery. Worked for 4 different nurseries. Had my own horticultural business for over 20 years. I am 70 now and I breath plants.
Lets talk philosophy
- Thread starter Warpig
- Start date
Bolero
Omono
It's how our economy works.
Also unsustainable.
Sorce
Ahhhhh but it is Sustainable as we prove it to be... Eh
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
As soon as one can say, "it's my art", it can be as shit as they want.
This has nothing to do with classical paintings.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Actually, our economy is based on perpetual growth.
Math will have the population plateau.
When it does, we will realize it's unsustainability.
Sorce
Why doesn't it? How is what Goshin is to bonsai not similar to what the Mona Lisa is to painting?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It's just not the point.
The point is, there is a "bonsai" as approached via the Kaizen Philosophy, where, it is done to an agreed level of perfection that has nothing to do with the art.
This is a "unified front" as it were, that we can't achieve in the, ahem, United States, because our philosophy is, be better than the next guy, regardless of quality, honesty, perfection, etc.
So we flail, arguing about "art" and "hobbies" like it is doing anything for us.
Sorce
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
There's a lot of art that was considered poor or vulgar or worthless when it was made, with the artists dying poor...yet now some of those paintings (as an example) are hanging in art museums all over the world and are worth millions. The great impressionists like Monet were ridiculed at first, now people flock to see their paintings. Tastes change, when you're dealing with something subjective like art. On the other hand, there's no debate about someone who wins a marathon in record time - he/she is clearly faster and thus "better" than previous runners. That's clear cut. With bonsai, people tend to define "best" as whatever is currently the style in Japan, but all one has to do is browse through past Kokufu albums to see how that has changed over time. And it will change again.
I find a lot of the sports analogies being used in this thread to be rather worthless when it comes to bonsai. Bonsai is not a team sport. If I'm playing hockey and I bring a stick that weighs 30 pounds, that's going to have a major negative impact on my team - so I would expect my teammates to be pissed. But if I go to a bonsai workshop with a pathetic stick in a pot and a set of old rusty dull tools? That really doesn't impact anyone else unless the instructor chooses to spend more time with me (and that would be his fault). It becomes an issue if I'm on a public forum spewing misinformation and acting as if I know what I'm talking about, but those kinds of people get flushed out pretty quickly most of the time (especially here). So in the end, I reiterate - who cares? Do bonsai however you want as long as you enjoy it.
I'm sure some do believe that and use the term "art" in that way. But again...who cares? Let them do what they want, ignore them if it bothers you.
Crossing branches (especially crossing the trunk) are generally considered taboo in bonsai, but what if I lived in an area where the "cool" and inspirational trees I saw had lots of crossing branches? Am I not allowed to design miniature trees in that way, just because it's not the accepted convention in Japan? Again, too much worrying about what others are doing and saying...focus on what you want to do and just do it! And I'm not speaking specifically to you, @sorce , but in general. That's actually one thing I'm getting out of my mirai membership - that it's OK to not do bonsai exactly the way people tell you that it must be done.
Bolero
Omono
If, for example, a Japanese Master Tree Grower, with his skill, decides to grow and manipulate his tree, so as, to be a thing of beauty for others to admire then it can be referred to as Art....
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Isn't it true though, that Ryan Neil expects a level of perfection first, after which, one can be set off on their own to do an educated version of their own thing?
I can see how that may not transfer as he'd wish, but, he teaches well enough for to get across 90% of the time I'd say.
Then again, it must be directly related to the persons income who is paying for the education.
Some rich guy with the latest beard subscription, tie subscription, etc, may ignore all the learning I suppose. Though it wouldn't matter cuz his trees are cared for.
Where someone like me would eat the information and need to get every ounce of worth out of it.
That may be why I see it how I do.
And that whole kumbaya shit! Lol!
Philosophy.
It's finding things where they didn't exist.
Creation.
Reverse Engineering Thoughts.
I'm into that shit.
This thread has bothered me from the Contradiction in the title and first Post.
Sorce
Funny you mention that.....In one of Bjorn's very first podcasts he mentions that during one of the Kokufu tours he gives one of the guests walked up to him and basically said (paraphrase) "what is going on here, these trees break all the rules?" and his response was "But what is your over all sense of the composition" and he went on to talk about how even in Japan the rules aren't hard and fast. He explained that many of the rules are broken in order to provide the image. And Bjorn is no chump. Apparently he was the first foreigner traveling around in Japan as a bonsai professional, so he knows a thing or two.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
What?????
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I must be more clear. I wouldn't being so many other humans emotions into a philosophical chat.
It was only written that way to get this same point across....
There is a Bonsai with no art.
The unified front of shared knowledge of everything that comes right before the art.
It is just, unfortunately, how we here ruin it for ourselves, by trying to put the art before standards, which when place, allow the art to actually flourish.
Same how Ryan frees your art with the skills, as drilled to make them "muscle memory".
Freeing time for...see my WP quote!
It's all the same.... philosophy.
Sorce
I don't know but it's what he claimed in his podcast. Not my claim! Maybe he meant of this new contemporary crew because Bill Valavanis seems to have got at least a few decades jump on him.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You forgot "a bonsai bigmouth with no trees"...
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
William Valavanis was a big wheel in Japan, and a Professional, and a publisher of a world wide premier bonsai magazine while Bjorn was shitting his diapers
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thats just one....
I can give you twenty more just off the top of my head.....
I can give you twenty more just off the top of my head.....
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Your a funny guy Bolero. I just read your stuff now, I don't get all bitchy like I used to. I have too much respect for the handicapped.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't think you have to achieve (anything near) perfection in any art/craft before you set off on your own. All you need to do is become fluent in technique. So for a painter you need to know how to mix and apply paint. For a bonsai practitioner you need to learn how to keep trees alive/healthy in a container (repotting, watering, fertilizing), as well as how to prune and wire. But you don't need to become perfect at wiring before you apply wire to your trees.
Sometimes people become so obsessed with rules that they lose the ability to self express. I remember when I used to do a lot of outdoor (plein air) painting, I was in a group and there was one woman who used to walk around asking everyone "where's your center of interest". You could hear her coming from a mile away. Well, most paintings do benefit from a single well defined center of interest, but it's not a requirement. There are other ways to convey a feeling or emotion. Other people focus on things like "you shouldn't have the horizon line in the middle of the painting." Well, again - you probably don't want to have your horizon line in the middle of every painting, but there are definitely times when it is a useful way to get your point across.
It does help to know some of the "rules" for composition and those can be learned along the way.
As for Ryan - he certainly harps on things like wiring technique but again - unless you're putting a tree in a show, the wire doesn't have to be or look perfect. It has to function without damaging the tree.
He's probably different in his classes where people are working on his trees, but I think it's good that he takes a more relaxed approach on the mirai streams, Q&As, etc. To each his own, though.
Where can I get one of those? LOL.