Maple Soil Survey - Organics or Not?

ajm55555

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I'll use organics/sifted soil conditioner in maples and other trees being grown out in nursery cans or grow pots. Once a tree gets moved up to a ceramic bonsai container, it always goes into a organic free akadama/pumice/lava mix. I did grow maples successfully for years in a turface/lava/bark mix for years in bonsai pots, but there was always a lower layer of soil in the pots that remained too wet imo.
Do you think that was because of the bark?
 

Dav4

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Do you think that was because of the bark?
The biggest issue with that mix was that the turface particles tended to be smaller then the lava and would settle toward the lower half of the pot over time. They also aren't round and that allows them to stack on top of each other which reduced the room for air to move through. Throw in some bark mix breaking down and settling in the bottom of the pot along with the turface and it became pretty swampy on the bottom.
 
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Lorax7

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The biggest issue with that mix was that the turface particles tended to be smaller then the lava and would settle toward the lower half of the pot over time. They also aren't round and that allows them to stack on top of each other which reduced the room for air to move through. Throw in some bark mix breaking down and settling in the bottom of the pot along with the turface and it became pretty swampy on the bottom.
Even if there was no settling, having 2 very different particle sizes reduces AFP by a lot (can easily be a difference of 20% or more).
 

Dav4

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Even if there was no settling, having 2 very different particle sizes reduces AFP by a lot (can easily be a difference of 20% or more).
Yep, I was aware of the issues using different sized particles but turface was cheap, readily available, and the sizes of the pumice and/ or lava were spot on and turface wasn’t too far off. Ultimately, there were multiple problems with the mix, but they were all relatively minor, but the compacted and wet layer at the bottom of my bigger pots at repotting time was obvious enough to get me to change up my mix
 

River's Edge

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What does Andrei Merrigioli say? He wrote the most definitive and current book on maples. Compiling the best information from experts on Maples. Nope, only organics are in the recommended fertilizer, none in the soil mix. He does emphasize that % of components as well as particle size must be adapted to stage of growth and specific growing conditions.
A rather well written chapter including full explanation for the choice of components and balance for various stages of development and stages of refinement.

Personally I work with varying percentages and particle sizes of Akadama, Kanuma, Black lava and Pumice.
Organics provided by home made fertilizer.






IMG_0664.JPGIMG_0666.JPG
 

Ohmy222

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I never use organics. Straight akadama and pumice for me. I did an APL mix or still do but I began killing the lava for the deciduous. Mainly cosmetics and particle size as my lava always seemed to be chunkier. Most nurseries use pine bark but mainly because it is cheap and relatively light. It is freer draining. I believe I read they lose all nutrient value pretty quickly so it has to be changed out quickly which is normal for nurseries anyway. Big difference for me though is aggregate soils give a better root ball for bonsai. Nurseries don’t call about nebari or fine feeder roots like people in bonsai.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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IF you understand how to water a mix, and how and when to fertilize that mix, you can grow trees in just about ANYTHING.

That said, more important than component is the particle size distribution, not too big and not too small is key. Particle size in part is a major factor determining how frequently you must water.

Single most important tool in your bonsai tool box is a good set of sieves for sifting soil components. Uniform or a narrow range of particle size is critical for good bonsai horticulture.

After you have a set of sieves, you can experiment with all manner of potting media.

I have generally settled on pumice and akadama for mature trees. Pumice is probably my most important and versatile media component. Every one of my "better performing" potting mixes has pumice as a major component. APL works but is a bit to dry for me.
 

Scorpius

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No organics here, but my summer climate is very humid and my trees tend to stay wet so I want a very free draining mix for my maples.
 

dbonsaiw

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A quote from an old professor seems apropos - "A clear picture of a fuzzy scene is a fuzzy picture".
 

dbonsaiw

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Given all the conflicting advice, my conclusion is that so long as I pay attention to aeration, drainage and water retention the soil will be fine (maybe not ideal, but tree will not spontaneously combust unless put in potting soil). Amount of water and fertilizer will be dictated by the soil choices.

I need to purchase a good deal of soil for spring repotting and was looking at Bonsai Jack as the price seemed right. Other recommendations for 20+ gallons would be appreciated. I would likely use bonsai block, pumice and pine bark.

I also called around some local-ish bonsai places and they aren't so open about what's in their mixes. They seem to be witch's brews containing many ingredients. Also, they are sold as a one size fits all - same soil for different trees and that just didnt seem right to this beginner.
 

Canada Bonsai

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Given all the conflicting advice, my conclusion is that so long as I pay attention to aeration, drainage and water retention the soil will be fine (maybe not ideal, but tree will not spontaneously combust unless put in potting soil)

This is the natural conclusion based on the responses you've received, most of which are appropriately focused on the survival and well-being of the tree. But @Ohmy222 raised an important point: your choice of substrate will also have a significant impact on the aesthetic future and potential of your tree.

I can only speak about the differences I've observed at opposite extremes of the spectrum:

MOST of my Japanese Maples are in a mixture of equal parts peat-loam and composted pine mulch. The composted pine mulch is great because Japanese Maples like a nice porous soil that is slightly on the acidic
side. The trees are as healthy as can be. But none of these Japanese Maples are destined to be bonsai.

My Japanese Maples destined for bonsai
are in a mix that is the same or similar to the one @River's Edge described above.

Conclusion: when I repot my 'landscape' Japanese Maples the roots systems do not look anything like the root systems of my 'bonsai' Japanese Maples. The roots are lengthier, less ramified, and despite consistent 'bonsai style' pruning of the roots they do not generate fine feeder roots around the trunk. Instead, the roots seem to go 'searching' around the pot. I wish I had pictures of the roots of my 'landscape' Japanese Maples, but I don't unfortunately. I did attach 3 images of one of my 'bonsai' Japanese Maples tracked on March 2019, March 2020, and March 2021. I am confident that this progress would not be possible in the organic mix that I use for my 'landscape' Japanese Maples.

So yes, aeration, drainage and water retention are important and can be achieved with many types of substrate, but a concern about health/survival of your bonsai is only half the story.

I have met people who have spent the last 30 years pre-occupied by the heath of their bonsai. To me, the goal is to find the right substrate and attune your behaviour to it so that you don't have to think about the survival of your bonsai and can focus on doing bonsai.
 

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0soyoung

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I am confident that this progress would not be possible in the organic mix that I use for my 'landscape' Japanese Maples.


I have met people who have spent the last 30 years pre-occupied by the heath of their bonsai. To me, the goal is to find the right substrate and attune your behaviour to it so that you don't have to think about the survival of your bonsai and can focus on doing bonsai.
I was never impressed by soil mixology, to be quite honest. I did a few tests early on and recognized similar findings as yours.
Just Turface MVP does the job quite well, IMHO (maybe a top dressing of chopped sphagnum to prevent the surface from drying too quickly when times when rH is low.

The science (in the reference above) makes clear why Turface does what it does to roots.
 

dbonsaiw

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Soil is perhaps the most important part of bonsai and its importance cannot be overstated. That said, and at the risk of getting my head chopped off on an already sensitive subject, an outsider reading these posts could easily come to the conclusion that the exact components of a "good soil mix" can take any number of acceptable recipes (dare I say really doesn't matter?). How else can owners of the same species of tree in very similar zones all have success with entirely different mixes? To be sure, I'm surely not saying that soil mixes cannot be further optimized, they surely can. All I am saying is that those who are new to this art (like myself) are totally lost in space when it comes to soil and would benefit from a more simple answer for the newbie needs. The newbie question is more "Oh crap, I planted my trees in potting soil and need to know what to repot it in", than a need to earn a PHD in soil mechanics and formulate the most ideal soil for the particular microclimate of their backyards. I will be so bold as to say that so long as the soil aerates, drains and retains water (right PH), the tree will live and thrive, regardless of the exact mix. Just pick a mix, plant the tree and be mindful of water and nutrients. If there was an exact answer/science as to which was clearly better, folks here would have shared that info long ago. The answer is there are ultimately lots of acceptable answers. KISS - keep it simple stupid.

I will do my first repotting session in Bonsai Jack universal organic soil - 40% calcined clay, 40% pumice and 20% pine bark, all 1/4 inch. A little over $200 for 28 gallons. Is someone really going to claim that this won't work for my maples? That the lack of akadama or inclusion of pine bark is fatal? I'm 100% positive that my soil preferences will change over the years, but I think this really difficult discussion can be really dumbed down for those who are just getting started.
 

Ohmy222

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This is the natural conclusion based on the responses you've received, most of which are appropriately focused on the survival and well-being of the tree. But @Ohmy222 raised an important point: your choice of substrate will also have a significant impact on the aesthetic future and potential of your tree.

I can only speak about the differences I've observed at opposite extremes of the spectrum:

MOST of my Japanese Maples are in a mixture of equal parts peat-loam and composted pine mulch. The composted pine mulch is great because Japanese Maples like a nice porous soil that is slightly on the acidic
side. The trees are as healthy as can be. But none of these Japanese Maples are destined to be bonsai.

My Japanese Maples destined for bonsai
are in a mix that is the same or similar to the one @River's Edge described above.

Conclusion: when I repot my 'landscape' Japanese Maples the roots systems do not look anything like the root systems of my 'bonsai' Japanese Maples. The roots are lengthier, less ramified, and despite consistent 'bonsai style' pruning of the roots they do not generate fine feeder roots around the trunk. Instead, the roots seem to go 'searching' around the pot. I wish I had pictures of the roots of my 'landscape' Japanese Maples, but I don't unfortunately. I did attach 3 images of one of my 'bonsai' Japanese Maples tracked on March 2019, March 2020, and March 2021. I am confident that this progress would not be possible in the organic mix that I use for my 'landscape' Japanese Maples.

So yes, aeration, drainage and water retention are important and can be achieved with many types of substrate, but a concern about health/survival of your bonsai is only half the story.

I have met people who have spent the last 30 years pre-occupied by the heath of their bonsai. To me, the goal is to find the right substrate and attune your behaviour to it so that you don't have to think about the survival of your bonsai and can focus on doing bonsai.
Yeah, if you don't care about the roots then pine bark is probably fine. A misconception many have though is if a nursery does it then that is the proper way to do it. Nurseries care about cost and weight more than anything and with dirt most of the cost is because of the weight (higher shipping). Peat, perlite, chunky pine bark, vermiculite, coco coir, etc are popular because they are lighter and cheap and are just adequate enough that plants won't die before someone buys them.
 

leatherback

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because they are lighter and cheap and are just adequate enough that plants won't die before someone buys them.
Sorry, but this is not how I see plant nuerseries here operating at all. (But maybe that is why the Dutch are so succesfull in producing agriculture and plants for the world)
 

sorce

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Plus ONE condemning the shit out of those 2 ad-baiting websites.

I think what Leo says is most true, you can grow anything in anything.

Adjusting your soil to be ok during the most extreme times, like leatherbacks wet winters, is the best idea.

It makes no sense to use a soil that gives you excellent growth but can also kill them instantly.

Make a "no-kill' soil and adjust to it.

Sorce
 

Colorado

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Soil is perhaps the most important part of bonsai and its importance cannot be overstated. That said, and at the risk of getting my head chopped off on an already sensitive subject, an outsider reading these posts could easily come to the conclusion that the exact components of a "good soil mix" can take any number of acceptable recipes (dare I say really doesn't matter?). How else can owners of the same species of tree in very similar zones all have success with entirely different mixes? To be sure, I'm surely not saying that soil mixes cannot be further optimized, they surely can. All I am saying is that those who are new to this art (like myself) are totally lost in space when it comes to soil and would benefit from a more simple answer for the newbie needs. The newbie question is more "Oh crap, I planted my trees in potting soil and need to know what to repot it in", than a need to earn a PHD in soil mechanics and formulate the most ideal soil for the particular microclimate of their backyards. I will be so bold as to say that so long as the soil aerates, drains and retains water (right PH), the tree will live and thrive, regardless of the exact mix. Just pick a mix, plant the tree and be mindful of water and nutrients. If there was an exact answer/science as to which was clearly better, folks here would have shared that info long ago. The answer is there are ultimately lots of acceptable answers. KISS - keep it simple stupid.

I will do my first repotting session in Bonsai Jack universal organic soil - 40% calcined clay, 40% pumice and 20% pine bark, all 1/4 inch. A little over $200 for 28 gallons. Is someone really going to claim that this won't work for my maples? That the lack of akadama or inclusion of pine bark is fatal? I'm 100% positive that my soil preferences will change over the years, but I think this really difficult discussion can be really dumbed down for those who are just getting started.

No one is saying that the pine bark mix “won’t work.” Your mix will be “ok.”

But do yourself a favor and get a small amount of akadama. Test it out on a couple trees. You will never want to go back to bark. You’ll see for yourself.
 

leatherback

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But do yourself a favor and get a small amount of akadama. Test it out on a couple trees. You will never want to go back to bark. You’ll see for yourself.
But do it on trees you do not mind loosing. All my trials with kakadama resulted in suffucating mud killing the roots.
 

sorce

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Yes.

It is important to be wary of the "learning curve" that is JUST sourcing decent Akadama. It's easy to condemn it if you don't get what's appropriate.

Whatever anyone thinks about Walter Pall's method, doing it anymore "correct" would only make for even better growth, and he does it sanskadama.

I still don't think the Japanese Master who would call us foolish for shipping soil has the same mindset as the dude shipping that shit here for profit.

Sorce
 

Maiden69

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But do it on trees you do not mind loosing. All my trials with kakadama resulted in suffucating mud killing the roots.
It depends on the type of akadama... I mean Sergio (Mach5) uses straight akadama with a splash of kiryu, David Cotizas from Spain uses 70% akadama and 30% kiryu, and Ryan Neil uses straight akadama for everything except conifers and I don't see them having the same issue. And I point those two out because out of all the people I seen using akadama they are the ones using the most percentage per soil mix.

I posted this in another thread, but in my opinion akadama should be used for trees already in bonsai pots, not trees in development. This is one thing that Ryan emphasize all the time when asked about developing trees. I think that if the tree can take a full bareroot repot, you can use whatever organic substrate you want to develop it, then when you decide to move it to a bonsai pot, bareroot it to remove it and use inorganic from there on.
 
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