sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Thanks for probing that out of the pink thonged ass Aaron!
Sorce
Sorce
Miracle grow all purpose shake and feed… Beating a dead horse
- Thread starter AaronThomas
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
You guys understand that fertilizer is done on a molecular level needing a microscope? How it comes makes no difference. Fertilizer is made to be easy for the user not the plants. All the compressed beads, blocks and cakes all need to be broken down by water, then microbes changing urea to nitrates. This takes days, being washed out before it ever becomes useful to the plant. I start out with a water soluble potassium nitrate instantly available to the plant.
If you fertilize on Monday with urea and water two times a day, the fertilizer is not even nitrate ( the only compound a plant can use) for three to four days. This is OK in the ground, but not in a pot. In three days you have washed thru six times what you placed on the plant Monday. Some of you guys say you are fertilizing twice a month. Your are effectively doing nothing. If you wish to fertilize like that, plant it in the ground. If you wish to fertilize a potted tree with rocks as soil in the 1/8 to 1/4 inch size you need nitrate as at least 30 percent of your nitrogen source.
This is not me talkin, this is 150 years of farming in the San Joaquin valley, providing food for the world in months not years. Ask a farmer what he uses on his crops and chances are it will be a Grow More product or Apex by Simplot.
Jim Gremel and Ed Clark both use Apex. I don't especially like the green prills of Apex, but it is very good fertilizer.
If you fertilize on Monday with urea and water two times a day, the fertilizer is not even nitrate ( the only compound a plant can use) for three to four days. This is OK in the ground, but not in a pot. In three days you have washed thru six times what you placed on the plant Monday. Some of you guys say you are fertilizing twice a month. Your are effectively doing nothing. If you wish to fertilize like that, plant it in the ground. If you wish to fertilize a potted tree with rocks as soil in the 1/8 to 1/4 inch size you need nitrate as at least 30 percent of your nitrogen source.
This is not me talkin, this is 150 years of farming in the San Joaquin valley, providing food for the world in months not years. Ask a farmer what he uses on his crops and chances are it will be a Grow More product or Apex by Simplot.
Jim Gremel and Ed Clark both use Apex. I don't especially like the green prills of Apex, but it is very good fertilizer.
AaronThomas
Omono
Anything for you my friend!
I know I'm still missing out a lot (could be the scotch I just had) but I think I'm on the right track with the Petes once a week? I just figured the granular ferts may help with the constant flushing of the soil.
AaronThomas
Omono
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
The three (I had forgotten one) were listed in my last post. One is the standard miracle gro, another is the Grow More urea-free "orchid fertilizer" (20-10-20) and the third is dyna-gro 7-9-5 (also urea-free I believe).
Most of the high urea ferts (like miracle gro) also contain ammoniacal nitrogen (and some also have nitrate) which I think is available to the plants more quickly than urea. I know a fair number of people who primarily use miracle gro and their trees look just fine, so at least some of the nitrogen in there must be getting into the plants.
Regarding the fertilizer smoke showed, I tried looking for it on the internet and found what I think is the same thing. It appears urea is the largest nitrogen source at 10.2%, followed by nitrate 5.9% and ammoniacal 3.9%. That may not be the right label, but it looks the same as the picture he posted. If you want to find out, you'll have to ask him directly since he ignores my posts.
You can drive yourself crazy with fertilizers. If you are interested, there are many old threads where this is discussed in gory detail. It is true that nitrate is the most readily available form of nitrogen. However, I think some plants (maples, maybe?) can take up too much nitrate under certain conditions, so if you switch it would probably be best to be careful with the application rate initially. Overall, in these loose/aggregate based soils it is tough to over-fertilize. Early on I was definitely under-fertilizing. My trees are doing much better now that I've upped the rate.
AaronThomas
Omono
I use the Dyna-grow as well .... and as I mentioned, the Petes 20-20-20 for more nitrogen on my growing elms.
LOL I have read so many posts.... kinda like the ol' soil debate I guess.... one million different opinions and probably all get you to the same place for the most part.
Among other things! But yes between the soil and ferts this year I have started drinking more then usual
Thank you for your time and help... I really appreciate you all sharing your knowledge.
Ill put in a good word for you!!!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Don't think it will matter. We have a "history"...
Thanks, I try to post when I feel I have something useful to contribute on a particular topic. With respect to fertilizer...I went down the whole "urea-free" path a couple of years ago, but backed off after discussing fertilizer with a number of bonsai artists whose work I respect...including Bill V, who uses miracle gro.
AaronThomas
Omono
Maybe the thong got stuck....?
aml1014
Masterpiece
When I read about what ferts to use, I always revert back to this http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html?m=1
Aaron
Aaron
AaronThomas
Omono
Aaron, thanks for sharing! That was super informative with all kinds of info!
Love this part!
I know it's not about ferts but still pretty great....
"There is no such thing as an 'ideal bonsai substrate'. There are in fact thousands of ideal substrates. I believe that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU USE AND IN WHAT MIXTURE as long as it is a modern substrate."
Definitely keeping this article and my bonsai reference bank!
Love this part!
I know it's not about ferts but still pretty great....
"There is no such thing as an 'ideal bonsai substrate'. There are in fact thousands of ideal substrates. I believe that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU USE AND IN WHAT MIXTURE as long as it is a modern substrate."
Definitely keeping this article and my bonsai reference bank!
Mike MoMo
Mame
Just purchased some Alaska today before work. I really want to pump some vigor into my trees before summer ends. They are.looking good but of course I.want better. This thread was right on time with my concerns I have been using Miracle Grow which has done a decent job yet well nothing to be proud of , though my wife's flowers do look great.
Mike MoMo
Mame
Am I tripping this Alaska got my plants standing on point like they on Viagra. Tomatoes turning red, Ficus leaves Shinning like New Money. Now I See
Use about 1/2 pound per 5 gallons of water??? this must be a concentrate you dispense with your injector. What do you recommend for mixing rates with the product without the use of an injector?This one......yes I buy it in 25 pound bags. Use about 1/2 pound per 5 gallons of water. Sorry it ain't cheap....but its dammmmn goood
With the washing out, when watering problem...
Are we saying that occurs with the physical pellets, due to the days it takes to break it down to nitrates?
But it doesn't happen with water soluble ferts, as the are instantly available to the tree?
This is something I worry about...
Are we saying that occurs with the physical pellets, due to the days it takes to break it down to nitrates?
But it doesn't happen with water soluble ferts, as the are instantly available to the tree?
This is something I worry about...
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
My injector is 17:1 so 1/2 pound per 22 gallons of water?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
A 17:1 injector uses 1 part of stock solution to 16 parts of water (totaling 17). So for every 1 gallon "from the bucket" (assuming use of something like a hozon system), 16 gallons of water are added.
Which means, if you put 1/2 pound of fertilizer in 5 gallons of water, then run that through a 17:1 injector, you'll have used a total of 17x5 or 85 gallons of water. So 1/2 pound of fertilizer in 85 gallons of water. I don't know what that would equal in terms of tablespoons per gallon, someone else will have to figure that out.
Edit...appears to be roughly 1/2 tsp/gal but obviously would depend on the density of the fertilizer.
Which means, if you put 1/2 pound of fertilizer in 5 gallons of water, then run that through a 17:1 injector, you'll have used a total of 17x5 or 85 gallons of water. So 1/2 pound of fertilizer in 85 gallons of water. I don't know what that would equal in terms of tablespoons per gallon, someone else will have to figure that out.
Edit...appears to be roughly 1/2 tsp/gal but obviously would depend on the density of the fertilizer.
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CWTurner
Omono
Smoke's post had me reading my fertilizer labels more carefully and it turns out most of the nitrogen is water insoluble.
The Gro More website is very informative but also a bit mind-boggling.
I'm thinking it may be best to disolve typical pelletized fertilizers (of which I had a lot) in water so that the total nitrogen is released. Has anybody done this? I'm concerned about the dosage with this method.
Its fertilizing day here. I just make a dunk of my Alaska fish fertilizer. It takes a while as I leave the plants submerged for 10 to 15 minutes.
CW
The Gro More website is very informative but also a bit mind-boggling.
I'm thinking it may be best to disolve typical pelletized fertilizers (of which I had a lot) in water so that the total nitrogen is released. Has anybody done this? I'm concerned about the dosage with this method.
Its fertilizing day here. I just make a dunk of my Alaska fish fertilizer. It takes a while as I leave the plants submerged for 10 to 15 minutes.
CW
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
What are you using? Stuff like fish emulsion, yes most of the nitrogen needs to be broken down before it can be used. Same is true for most organic ferts. On the other hand, stuff like miracle gro, dyn-gro, all the nitrogen is water soluble. But even then, the urea form must be broken down as it can't be used directly by plants. Only nitrate and ammonium can be used directly. So the concern is if your fert has urea as the primary nitrogen source, most of it may be washed out of the soil before it can be converted to the biologically usable form.
VAFisher
Masterpiece
I've been fertilizing once per week with all purpose Miracle Grow. After reading what Smoke had to say about nitrate never being available to the plant, I decided to give the Grow More product a try. It's pricey for a 25 lb bag but the Amazon add says the general dosage is 1 tablespoon per gallon of water, so it should last a good long while. Hopefully, I'll see a big difference.
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