Modernistic counterpunch

[rockm]

Over on the IBC on page 46 of the "American bonsai at the N.C. Arboretum" thread curator Arthur Joura of posted a thoughtful refutation of the idea that "modern" bonsai is going to sweep everything bonsai away in the U.S.

He contends that it "excludes" most people who are interested in bonsai and the "the chest-thumping technical bravado of the Modernistic work is less appealing to the general public"
Those are among many quietly pointed criticism of the clanging "big bad conifer" movement...
The post is worth seeking out and reading. For some reason, I can't get the whole link copied here, but here's where to start.

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Could you post the link to the thread? I've never got accepted over there after registration and I can't find that thread.

 

[whfarro]

Same. Tried to register several times without success.

 

[Jester217300]

Here is a direct link:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12772p675-american-bonsai-at-the-nc-arboretum#174242

 

[A Random User]

Over on the IBC on page 46 of the "American bonsai at the N.C. Arboretum" thread curator Arthur Joura of posted a thoughtful refutation of the idea that "modern" bonsai is going to sweep everything bonsai away in the U.S.
He contends that it "excludes" most people who are interested in bonsai and the "the chest-thumping technical bravado of the Modernistic work is less appealing to the general public"
Those are among many quietly pointed criticism of the clanging "big bad conifer" movement...
The post is worth seeking out and reading. For some reason, I can't get the whole link copied here, but here's where to start.

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/

I think that big bad conifers are awesome. .. yet have to question the "modern" views of why and how this is the only type of material that seems to be the path forward in these folks thinking, for us here in the States?

I have had arguments over scrolls as I am sure most know, after the recent revelations of what the Cup brought us in terms of this "modern" thinking... and my argument is the same and will always be the same...

It is rediculous to even claim that American Bonsai is one thing or another and can only hold things approved by others as being so... American Bonsai can be anything we want it to be! We have very talented folks from all over working on any number of materials and doing awesome work! So, why are we then not pushing our diversity, seeing that this is what America itself is based on, a melting pot? Our art here on the states should reflect all of it's people, and not just a few elitist, claiming they know something others don't...

So, my vote is this logic is stupid and does more to hurt American Bonsai than help!

I would be willing to put any of our buttonwoods down here against any of their conifers any time... having lived in both regions, it is surprising how little folks know regarding the diversity of the Americas and how, only one region does not hold the answers to all tree's of any age or any environment stresses... to me this just shows a lack of knowledge and is ignorant.

It is a little like broadleaf trees not being able to have deadwood... our broadleaf trees down here are full of deadwood. So, this is a logic of those who are only based in the reality of what they want to know. And not what is actually the case.

 

[barrosinc]

interesting read... still wouldn't mind owning one

 

[rockm]

Favorite passage:
" I think Modernistic bonsai are perceived mostly as dramatic curiosities by the public. They may find them impressive, but coldly so. What is there for the average person to relate to? The most prevalent positive response I hear expresses itself through the desire of possession, as in, "I want to own that thing!" This is the same reaction provoked by an expensive car, or a big diamond necklace, or a hot young fashion model. From a marketing standpoint, if you are a dealer in Modernistic bonsai or the kind of material necessary to produce it, or if you are a bonsai guru who promises to teach people to become accomplished in that style, then the wave that is supposedly coming out of Portland to flood the world is indeed good news. If you think bonsai has some value beyond surface appeal and status, well, maybe not."

 

[coh]

It's all about $. Where is all this originating, the Pacific NW crowd. There's money to be made digging and selling mountain trees, but you first have to create the demand, create the impression that this is the way to do bonsai. Artisans Cup, mission accomplished.

 

[Dav4]

I love those ancient conifers, too...I actually own a couple. With that said, I agree that this modernistic trend will only have an impact at the highest levels of bonsai...and only a small one at that. I believe that the characteristics or innate aesthetic that allow a bonsai to be exceptional will be found in most good bonsai across the board, whether they're considered to be classical Japanese, modernistic/naturalistic, yada yada yada...they either look good or they don't.

 

[crust]

I am sort of in Walters camp on this (who technically is not so much of a modern artist but leans more naturalist) in that the discourse in it self is very important and ultimately useful and nurturing to the art.

I think it is not accurate to perceive "modern bonsai" as just large collected trees (even if they are the icons of this). I believe that the true essence of the modern movement in American bonsai is that the forms and lines and stories of these trees are born from a new more purely endemic impulse--one that would include the philosophy of Arthur Joura of NCA and Aarin Packard of PBM, and that of Ryan Neil and his Miria students. I think what it leans away from is the focus of this art to be in constant reference with its Japanese origins.
The whole thing is intuitive and naturally evolutionary--the conversations become conversations like that about pop music movements--people have there camps--sometimes there is animosity and resistance--some are offended-- other go crazy for it--and in the end it does not matter. What probably maters is the evolution will bear a more sustainable and culturally genuine art form which will be more accessible, required no translation and in the end just more interesting to us as Americans.

 

[A Random User]

Wanted to add one more thing to the discussion, cause I think it is relevant...

That I think that that in reality what is happening here is that there is awakening from what happened in Nirvana land... but, I am not quite sure it will have the long term impact that perhaps was intended by those who hosted the event.

I will explain... I think for a lot of folks they instead of stepping in line were actually turned off by what they saw and heard... for me, I know I was.

This event was hailed as the event that was to represent American Bonsai... yet, I found this not to really be the case. The disproportionate ratio of the type of trees, the regions from which they came from... the lack of any trees from outside of just the states, the way in which the host chose to display and lack of display items they felt did not belong in these displays, etc... I think, as well of a lot of others I am sure, seemed to be more self contained within the views of what the host felt was representative of what American Bonsai should look like, with little of what American Bonsai perhaps really looked like.

I think this will be it's undoing... and I mean this seriously. I mean if one is to claim that American Bonsai as their product... and one does not see representations of bonsai that they see in their regions, seeing that the Americas are a big place and hold any number of different type climates and environments, one naturally gets the feeling that this had very little to do with what the product claimed it was to represent.

Now, I understand there were issues... like politics, where folks might have felt they were being snubbed before the event even took place, that were out of the host's control... I also, know that the lack of entries was apparent, as backed up through numerous sources that I have spoke to, that said that including the entries submitted for the original date the year before that was postponed, just barely topped over 150... not to mention that last minute push, pleading for folks to enter something... alot of folks also felt intimidated and felt their trees were not up to par with such an event...

So, I get all of this, and don't necessarily blame the host for this... However, if one is going to claim an event as being representative of American Bonsai, and put such a high bar out there to reach for, one needs to make damn sure you do everything humanly possible to do this! Instead, I feel the effort was no where close... and is shown in what was seen.

An event that had a very large talk, without the substance to back this claim... Sorry, this is just my feelings. I and others, felt left down... and I didn't want to feel this way. I want to be happy, it is awesome that we all have another possible event to do... and with time perhaps a lot of these issues will be resolved... I don't expect everything to always go right the first time... however this was quite a big "F-up", and was more important than if the stands that displayed the trees were angled, or the lighting was cool, if the displays had wood behind them, etc.... which is obviously what was more important to the host, than if the tree's shown actually held up to what the event claimed to be...

So, as we push forward, I think this fault will actually end up determining more what American Bonsai is, than what the host wanted to show... What is the saying? It's not always what you say, but what you don't say, that speaks volumes.

 

[crust]

Ahh, yes Stacy, all this was completely apparent. We shall see what happens. As I think about the changes in bonsai going on I also think of the supremely great shows Bill has put on in recent years and how up until that time nothing seems that good---much could be said about how the melting away of the California bonsai mafioso is indicative and important to a new developments in current bonzo paradigm. Really my feel is the drum-beats I heard and feel coming from all of this is one about crazy passionate artists working with trees at the highest most committed levels--a drone that ignores the neophytes and beginners and retired codgers many American bonzo clubs have focused for years on the promotion of bonsai and the education of neophytes and beginners and retired codgers thinking that is the key. I think that is retarded. I believe in a policy of attraction rather than promotion--we won't all be rock stars like them but I still dig Led Zeppelin. I think we practitioners should forget about beginners and work and share amongst ourselves--the rest will come naturally.

 

[A Random User]

Ahh, yes Stacy, all this was completely apparent. We shall see what happens. As I think about the changes in bonsai going on I also think of the supremely great shows Bill has put on in recent years and how up until that time nothing seems that good---much could be said about how the melting away of the California bonsai mafioso is indicative and important to a new developments in current bonzo paradigm. Really my feel is the drum-beats I heard and feel coming from all of this is one about crazy passionate artists working with trees at the highest most committed levels--a drone that ignores the neophytes and beginners and retired codgers many American bonzo clubs have focused for years on the promotion of bonsai and the education of neophytes and beginners and retired codgers thinking that is the key. I think that is retarded. I believe in a policy of attraction rather than promotion--we won't all be rock stars like them but I still dig Led Zeppelin. I think we practitioners should forget about beginners and work and share amongst ourselves--the rest will come naturally.

I understand, and as I said with my two posts here, I have no problem with the conifers that were shown, I appreciate b them tremendously, as a kid growing up in Colorado and involved in the scouts, I have traveled extensively throughout the west and west coast... and have seen a lot of the environments and trees of these regions first hand, and I love them. However, I have also traveled extensively through every where else in America and have also seen the diversity that is appearant in these regions and what they have to offer us as well.

I think that the Cup was a good thing... I don't think many can argue this, for the progression of bonsai in America... However, I am left feeling that instead of drawing folks together in bonsai and as a unit working to progress what we all hold dear and want to make happen... the progression of Bonsai within America, we are now squabbling to decide who and who cannot be included, as if this is only a secret group for the few...

This only adds to all the BS of what is already more than a reality of what already exists sadly within bonsai here and that is it's politics... as if we are a bunch of old ninnys arguing over the local bake sale and who has the best slice of pie!

It is silly... together is the only way we truly push each other and bring out the best in what can be in all of us! How, can we share and learn if we are to busy trying to tell the other what they can and cannot do?

Colin Fraser responded to one of my FB posts saying that the Cup was about freedom, and that I was demanding others and their ideas be included... To which I responded that he did not have the right to decide for American Bonsai what it became... he only had the right to decided how he felt it should become. It is not his to do this with... it is up to everyone who participates to decided. There is no demanding you give them what is already theirs...

This is funny, cause I could say the same thing about Colin and the Cup... that perhaps they and the others who have caught it's bug, are demanding the rest of us comply?

Let's just get back to Bonsai and quit all of the talk about what it can or cannot be and just let what happens happen.

 

[ABCarve]

I would be willing to put any of our buttonwoods down here against any of their conifers any time...

I agreed with everything you said up until this. I never thought of art as a competitive sport. It's similar to saying, "I'd put any impressionist against any expressionist anytime".

 

[johng]

I think we practitioners should forget about beginners and work and share amongst ourselves--the rest will come naturally.

Amen brother! I agree completely but wonder how this can be done without appearing elitist? Ideas?

 

[M. Frary]

Over on the IBC on page 46 of the "American bonsai at the N.C. Arboretum" thread curator Arthur Joura of posted a thoughtful refutation of the idea that "modern" bonsai is going to sweep everything bonsai away in the U.S.

He contends that it "excludes" most people who are interested in bonsai and the "the chest-thumping technical bravado of the Modernistic work is less appealing to the general public"
Those are among many quietly pointed criticism of the clanging "big bad conifer" movement...
The post is worth seeking out and reading. For some reason, I can't get the whole link copied here, but here's where to start.

http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/

I read it a few days ago.

 

[Geo]

I agreed with everything you said up until this. I never thought of art as a competitive sport. It's similar to saying, "I'd put any impressionist against any expressionist anytime".[/QUOTE

]I had thought that he was referencing deadwood.

 

[music~maker]

I think we practitioners should forget about beginners and work and share amongst ourselves--the rest will come naturally.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Maybe I'm missing a nuance here, but how does sharing with beginners - or more important, your recommendation not to, impact artists performing at their highest level? Why are these mutually exclusive, or even related at all? Or am I missing your point altogether?

 

[Eric Group]

Favorite passage:
" I think Modernistic bonsai are perceived mostly as dramatic curiosities by the public. They may find them impressive, but coldly so. What is there for the average person to relate to? The most prevalent positive response I hear expresses itself through the desire of possession, as in, "I want to own that thing!" This is the same reaction provoked by an expensive car, or a big diamond necklace, or a hot young fashion model. From a marketing standpoint, if you are a dealer in Modernistic bonsai or the kind of material necessary to produce it, or if you are a bonsai guru who promises to teach people to become accomplished in that style, then the wave that is supposedly coming out of Portland to flood the world is indeed good news. If you think bonsai has some value beyond surface appeal and status, well, maybe not."

This is so true... But let's examine what he is saying here- this trend developing of big modern American bonsai is like flashy cars, shiny jewels and beautiful women... IOW it is like... Everything Americans love and covet? So... Of course this is the direction that Bonsai is going in America! "Bigger, better, faster, MORE!" Bigger trees, made from "better" artists, produced within a couple years from collection to show tables= much FASTER than most Bonsai take to create- and MORE AND MORE are being churned out every year.. Walter Pall was talking about the process of how they collect these things! Groups of people working a field processing hundreds of trees- wedging them into pots as quick as possible... I saw it first hand at Weigerts in South Florida with Bouganvilla and other plants they were collecting in mass quantities last year when I was down there- groups of guys were working through hundreds of trees! They'd grab one up, lay it on it's side- machete comes out, whacks the roots back to a manageable size, dropped into a pot, add dirt, on to the next one... This is mass production Bonsai the American way! Of course this is what we do with Bonsai here. In South Florida, they collect Bouganvilla, out west it is RMJ, round here is it Bald a cypress (though I haven't seen anyone mass producing the BC yet..)... NE- Pitch Pine Maybe? We, as a culture want the biggest/ shiniest/ best thing we can get our hands on. We want it delivered to our door and we want to turn it into a masterpiece overnight! We have been conditioned to be this way since birth by the media, pier pressure... It is just how we are.

Good, bad for Bonsai? I don't have an opinion on that yet, but it is certainly not surprising to me that Bonsai is headed down this path in American main stream. I think it is unavoidable. It doesn't mean we all have to participate and be that same way or produce the same trees... It DOES mean though that if you do not take that approach and join the arms race of "bigger, better, faster, MORE" trees, you will probably not be walking away with any blue ribbons or prize money from the major shows.

Case in point- the main prize at the show that was just held AT Arthur's Arboretum (well, the NC Arboretum... It isn't ARTHUR'S.. He is the curator... But he is the one who puts the show on, and he is the author of this blog...) was won by one of these types of trees (a tree last shown at the Artisan's Cup) he and others seem to be railing against in this thread. Ironic? Perhaps... But it shows that this is not JUST an isolated "Portland" phenomenon. It is what Bonsai has become in America.

So- again- good or bad for Bonsai? Well.. I like Bonsai, I'd like to see it BE more main stream, or at least more widely recognized as a legit art form (not the side show, ancient Japanese magic act most Americans seem to think it is today) if for no other reason than it would make it more interesting to see some of the most talented artists in America Embrace it and the best ceramic artists might make a Bonsai Pot instead of a face jug... Or the best painters may paint scrolls or paint porcelains pots instead of other mixed media works.. Or the best sculptors may try their hands at this "living sculpture" instead of inanimate clay... So, from that perspective I think anything that furthers Bonsai in America helps it. Is it good from a creative POV? Maybe not.. If we are all driven to create basically the same style of tree (massive, crazy looking collected material) it could lead to less innovation...

 

[grouper52]

I think that the Cup was a good thing... I don't think many can argue this, for the progression of bonsai in America...

I'd like to know how "progress" in American bonsai is defined, why it's important to bonsai folks, why people feel a need to "progress,"and especially where or what we're progressing towards.