My biggest black pine.

[Adair M]

Every tree will be a 'great' tree eventually if you give it enough time and proper care. Note I didn't say you have to follow all the 'rules'.

"Enough time".

Yeah, sure. Namnhi, I've been practicing bonsai for over 45 years. I wont have another 45 years to redo all the mistakes I made.

The "rules" you rail against are, in part, my lifetime of experience. I freely share them here. You may not appreciate them, you do not have to follow them. I also post photos of my trees where I illustrate the application of the rules, and how they make good bonsai. I have not seen any pictures of your bonsai "without rules". So, I cannot say whether your approach is valid.

I do prefer Classical bonsai styling over the Naturalistic, but that can be considered a matter of taste. But, both schools have common ground. Notice, if you will, on Walter's tree: there are no hanging needles below the pads. Notice too, the tree is more or less "balanced". Both sides of the tree are close to being equally strong. (There are places on both sides that are too thick and need thinning.)

Tasks like "thinning" are not "rules for the sake of rules" they're there because that's how you keep a tree compact and healthy for decades.

 

[wireme]

That tree is about 5 times as tall as NY's tree, and about 20 times older. NY's tree will not approach looking like that tree in his lifetime!

Yamadori have age. And there is no substitute for it.

It is simply unrealistic for anyone to think they can grow a young tree into an old tree in their lifetime!

Wireme, see if you can find out what that tree of Walter's looked like before he started working on it.

What I see in NY's tree is about a ten year project of growing the upper portion and controlling growth in other areas with Walters tree as a source of inspiration. I may be wrong about where it would be after that time.
If I had it myself I'm not sure I would go that route, quite possibly I would instead chose to refine as is and get the best image I could in a shorter time span. Probably I would shoot for the former.

 

[wireme]

That tree is about 5 times as tall as NY's tree, and about 20 times older. NY's tree will not approach looking like that tree in his lifetime!

Yamadori have age. And there is no substitute for it.

It is simply unrealistic for anyone to think they can grow a young tree into an old tree in their lifetime!

Wireme, see if you can find out what that tree of Walter's looked like before he started working on it.

I'll try to clarify my thoughts a bit more.
I agree with your assessment that it won't be great anytime soon but really could be nice and pleasing and good to learn technique. ( sorry NY, not every tree has to be great, good trees are also great in my books in a way, if you know what I mean) If we were to give it 10-15 yrs of further trunk development, sure it still won't be a match for Walters pine but it may have the framework by then that would eventually become a great tree.
I used Walters as an example for a couple reasons.
1- Given what's there now I find it hard to see a "great" tree in the classic informal upright style no matter what is done. I really have nothing against that style, I like them and even think that's a more naturalistic form in ways than many people say. I see enough trees in the mountains growing in similar fashions, in the right environment.
2- I love the look of Walters tree! I want to see more like that too.
What do you think? Still crazy and way off base?

 

[Adair M]

Wireme,

NY has to make a choice: refine what's there now, or grow it out and refine the tree later.

You pretty much have to do one or the other.

It appears that NY wants to learn how to refine. That's a good idea. That way he'll get some experience, and learn technique.

But once you start to refine, stuff like trunk thickening stops. You have to accept what's there.

I posted Dan Robinson's comments about my JBP on another thread. He used my tree to discuss how little callousing and trunk growth happens on a highly refined tree.

It's a trade off.

 

[namnhi]

"Enough time".

Yeah, sure. Namnhi, I've been practicing bonsai for over 45 years. I wont have another 45 years to redo all the mistakes I made.

The "rules" you rail against are, in part, my lifetime of experience. I freely share them here. You may not appreciate them, you do not have to follow them. I also post photos of my trees where I illustrate the application of the rules, and how they make good bonsai. I have not seen any pictures of your bonsai "without rules". So, I cannot say whether your approach is valid.

Adair,
Am not against all rules. I happily adopt the ones that make sense. If you look back at the ones I disagreed with you... You will see.
Your trees and mine will never be in the same league. The most I have paid for one tree is 60 bucks where your is in upward of thousands. We in this hobby for different reasons... That not saying you have a superior eyes when it comes to design trees.
Back to Ny tree. I think he did a beautiful job with this tree. I don't see why he has to pick between growing it out or refine but not both. One can enjoy the current state of the tree. The tree will not stop growing while you working on refining.
Good night

 

[wireme]

Wireme,

NY has to make a choice: refine what's there now, or grow it out and refine the tree later.

You pretty much have to do one or the other.

It appears that NY wants to learn how to refine. That's a good idea. That way he'll get some experience, and learn technique.

But once you start to refine, stuff like trunk thickening stops. You have to accept what's there.

I posted Dan Robinson's comments about my JBP on another thread. He used my tree to discuss how little callousing and trunk growth happens on a highly refined tree.

It's a trade off.

Is funny, whenever we seem to disagree we wind up saying the same things as each other...

 

[Adair M]

Adair,
Am not against all rules. I happily adopt the ones that make sense. If you look back at the ones I disagreed with you... You will see.
Your trees and mine will never be in the same league. The most I have paid for one tree is 60 bucks where your is in upward of thousands. We in this hobby for different reasons... That not saying you have a superior eyes when it comes to design trees.
Back to Ny tree. I think he did a beautiful job with this tree. I don't see why he has to pick between growing it out or refine but not both. One can enjoy the current state of the tree. The tree will not stop growing while you working on refining.
Good night

Your statement "the tree will not stop growing while working on refining". Depends on your definition of "growing". When refining JBP, we pull needles, decandle, put it in a bonsai pot. All these things restrict its "growth". The tree doesn't get much taller. The trunk doesn't get any fatter. Yes, you develop more little branches. And lots of tips. And lots of short needles. "Growing" slows to a snail's pace. I shared Dan Robinson's comments on my tree on another thread. Where he talked about how highly refined trees don't heal their wounds, or put on trunk girth.

Usually when we talk about "growing", we're discussing building a fatter trunk, developing taper, growing it taller, developing nebari. All these things are done before it's put in a bonsai pot, or should be. Once it's in the bonsai pot, and refinement begins, the tree stops "growing".

I realize that what's in this post is a repeat of a prior post, but evidently you didn't understand it the first time.

You can try to grow out a sacrifice branch on a tree, while it's in a bonsai pot. It won't do much good. It might help a little. But if you really want it to work, it has to be in a big enough container where the roots can run a bit.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Adair any time a pine thread pops up...

 

[LanceMac10]

Adair any time a pine thread pops up...

You can do anything you want....remember.....your a Mellon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LanceMac10]

Honestly, I'm still laughing and it could end up being the same for an extended period of time.....

Yeah, that's brilliant.

 

[Nybonsai12]

It was a WET spring. A few pines have paler needles as a result. Color looks good on this one but growth was further along last year by this time. I will need to repot next year. im unsure if I will decandle in the next few weeks. Looking at this pic and think better wiring could have this foliage spacing managed much better this fall.

 

[Wilson]

It's looking good! I hear ya on our monsoon spring, so much water!

 

[Nybonsai12]

It's looking good! I hear ya on our monsoon spring, so much water!

I even moved pines out of the rain several times just because it was so much rain! There just wasn't a lot of sunny days. Growth on some trees seems slower as a result which is why I'm concerned about decandling this one.

 

[sorce]

Is funny, whenever we seem to disagree we wind up saying the same things as each other...

Lol!

If one says 2+2=4......

Adair has an uncanny ability to switch the 2's around and be MORE correct!



Sorry NY! Good work.

All my trees are just realizing it's time to grow.
After the monsoons that turned to 90f drought...
Which has finally settled into....regular.?

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

You can do anything you want....remember.....your a Mellon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t get no respect! No respect at all!

NY, your tree is coming along! I bet it will look great once you pull needles this fall.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don’t get no respect! No respect at all!

NY, your tree is coming along! I bet it will look great once you pull needles this fall.

Adair: I have never mentioned it but this just reminded me that it deserves mentioning. I have seen your Black Pine and it is by far the best example of Japanese Black Pine I have ever seen in person on in books and I have seen a few.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Looks like 3-4 spoke branches just below trunk chop. Solution for future?

 

[Adair M]

Adair: I have never mentioned it but this just reminded me that it deserves mentioning. I have seen your Black Pine and it is by far the best example of Japanese Black Pine I have ever seen in person on in books and I have seen a few.

Thanks, Vance. I’m in the process of pulling the old needles on it. So the ones I’m pulling are the ones you saw at the show. The new ones are a bit shorter!

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks, Vance. I’m pulling needles on it. So the ones I’m pulling are the ones you saw at the show. The new ones are a bit shorter!

I was impressed by the fact you did not cut the needles as is the practice with some who grow and exhibit this tree, the needle length was the product of culture not an intervention of scissors.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Decandled this summer. In need of additional wire to sort it. Repot in the spring. Any suggestions on what type of pot it would pair well with is appreciated. I like the shape of the pot it is in, but it is cracked so it’s time to move it to simething else. Don’t mind the cat.