Native Junipers??

[Bonsai Nut]

Not all California junipers are created equal Not sure what the story is, but some have tighter foliage than others. Folks I know who collect from the high desert specifically avoid the ones with the leggy growth. Additionally, I agree with what @Adair M says about trees taking on different characteristics once they are removed from one environment and placed in another. @Si Nguyen showed me some California juniper in his garden that I swore were shimpaku - but he says he gets compact growth by supplementing with a ton of iron.

I got a Mendocino pygmy cypress from Bob Shimon earlier this year. It was just a small thing, pretty weak, and we spent a lot of time talking about how he collects them and how they are naturally dwarfed from growing in small pockets of soil, as an understory tree. He estimated the tree at being 75 years old - and the trunk is perhaps 1" thick. I transplanted it gently into an Anderson flat with good bonsai mix, and the foliage mass has probably doubled in the last 6 months. I am concerned that perhaps I am growing it too fast, and that I will lose some of the gnarly, chunky personality that exists on the older parts of the tree. So just because a tree is collected as a dwarf doesn't mean it is going to stay a dwarf when it is in good soil, getting plenty of sun and water and fertilizer.

Ryan Neil did an episode on bristlecone pines where he said more or less the same thing. The trees can be naturally dwarfed and slow-growing when up on the top of a mountain... but if you bring it down and care for it, you may be surprised how strong and relatively fast-growing they can be.

 

[yenling83]

Vance, I have only recently (in the past 6 years) had the opportunity to learn much about our native junipers. I’ll share some of my discoveries.

All of the Sierra Junipers I have seen in pots have blue foliage. So naturally, I assumed they had blue foliage. Until... I went into the Sierra mountains, to view the view the wild trees growing at 10,000 feet, where they are native. Guess what? They’re green! If I hadn’t been with people who could positively have told me they were the same species as in the bonsai garden, I would never have believed they were the same!

So, why are Sierra Junipers green when growing wild in the mountains, and blue in the gardens?

I don’t know. Some factors that may come into play: elevation, water quality, humidity, frequency of water, soil pH, water pH, different UV exposure between mountain environment and the lower elevations, fertization, soil composition, soil temperature, daytime temperatures, nighttime temperatures, difference between day and night temperatures, length of cold and/or hot seasons...

I’m sure there’s more factors that may play a part in just the color!

Not to mention the growth habits are a bit different before and after collection, too! A tree that has tight foliage up on the mountain might change to loose and straggly once collected. It may be totally free of fungus on the mountain but very easily infected in our garden.

So...

I have come to the conclusion that while it may seem that we are “ruining” mother nature’s creation by changing the foliage from native to something we like better, like Kishu, it’s actually the best thing we can do. We have taken the tree out of its native environment, where it thrives, to an environment where it struggles to be healthy. It’s better for the tree (at least for the trunk!) to graft on foliage that thrives in its new environment, and actually looks like it’s native foliage in its native environment.

So, for instance, a California juniper would die in a couple years if left with California foliage inmy climate in Georgia. It’s very humid and rainy here. California juniper lives in a very hot, dry climate in California. They seldom live more than 3 years here. With grafted on Kishu foliage, they do far better! And with grafted kishu roots, well, they do just as well as a 100% Kishu tree.

I know some believe that changing the foliage is a sacrilege. That we are defiling the tree. I view it differently. That since we have removed the tree from the environment it has evolved to live in, changing the foliage is giving the tree a life support system so it can adapt to its new environment.

I'm right with you on grafting different types of foliage. There are many reason's why I think it would be great to graft a higher quality of foliage onto our trees whether that be Kishu, Ito or a higher quality native variety.

Sierra Juniper's foliage changing from Green to Blue is showing us what's happening to the tree. The color of the foliage is related to their genetics and their domestication.

First off with Genetics, after collection and recovery some are more green and some are more blue even when if collected right next to each other.

I don't think the color change has to do with elevation change, soil comp, soil temp, etc. I think it's simply just a more domesticated, more rapidly grown foliage. The foliage on Sierra J in rock pockets in the mountains is the product of a lack of water, harsh conditions and confined roots. When we take them home and start to baby them with lots of water and fertilizer they grow out much more vigorously compared with before being collected. It's really the newer growth that comes out blue, while the older interior foliage starts to turn brown and fall off. Eventually the whole tree is blue once all the foliage has been replaced. On occasion you do see bluer foliage naturally coming from mountain trees. Often small little seedlings will have vigorous blue growth up in the mountains.

Attached is a small-likely will be Shohin sized Sierra Juniper. Collected June 2017. It's in pure pumice. Near the tips the color has gotten more blue, the interior older growth is still more green. Apologize, not the clearest pic to see this, but the best I had on my phone. I'm grafting this with Kishu.

 

[ColinFraser]

I am concerned that perhaps I am growing it too fast, and that I will lose some of the gnarly, chunky personality that exists on the older parts of the tree. So just because a tree is collected as a dwarf doesn't mean it is going to stay a dwarf when it is in good soil, getting plenty of sun and water and fertilizer.

Ryan Neil did an episode on bristlecone pines where he said more or less the same thing. The trees can be naturally dwarfed and slow-growing when up on the top of a mountain... but if you bring it down and care for it, you may be surprised how strong and relatively fast-growing they can be.

. . . just look at a Monterey Cypress planted in a landscape and watered regularly - boring, straight, cone-shaped x-mas-tree - nothing at all like their wild, craggy, contorted, tortured-looking coastal counterparts that grow much more slowly and are battered by the elements.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I have only recently (in the past 6 years) had the opportunity to learn much about our native junipers. I’ll share some of my discoveries.

All of the Sierra Junipers I have seen in pots have blue foliage. So naturally, I assumed they had blue foliage. Until... I went into the Sierra mountains, to view the view the wild trees growing at 10,000 feet, where they are native. Guess what? They’re green! If I hadn’t been with people who could positively have told me they were the same species as in the bonsai garden, I would never have believed they were the same!

So, why are Sierra Junipers green when growing wild in the mountains, and blue in the gardens?

I don’t know. Some factors that may come into play: elevation, water quality, humidity, frequency of water, soil pH, water pH, different UV exposure between mountain environment and the lower elevations, fertization, soil composition, soil temperature, daytime temperatures, nighttime temperatures, difference between day and night temperatures, length of cold and/or hot seasons...

I’m sure there’s more factors that may play a part in just the color!

Not to mention the growth habits are a bit different before and after collection, too! A tree that has tight foliage up on the mountain might change to loose and straggly once collected. It may be totally free of fungus on the mountain but very easily infected in our garden.

So...

I have come to the conclusion that while it may seem that we are “ruining” mother nature’s creation by changing the foliage from native to something we like better, like Kishu, it’s actually the best thing we can do. We have taken the tree out of its native environment, where it thrives, to an environment where it struggles to be healthy. It’s better for the tree (at least for the trunk!) to graft on foliage that thrives in its new environment, and actually looks like it’s native foliage in its native environment.

So, for instance, a California juniper would die in a couple years if left with California foliage inmy climate in Georgia. It’s very humid and rainy here. California juniper lives in a very hot, dry climate in California. They seldom live more than 3 years here. With grafted on Kishu foliage, they do far better! And with grafted kishu roots, well, they do just as well as a 100% Kishu tree.

I know some believe that changing the foliage is a sacrilege. That we are defiling the tree. I view it differently. That since we have removed the tree from the environment it has evolved to live in, changing the foliage is giving the tree a life support system so it can adapt to its new environment.

Thank You for your point of view.

 

[Lorax7]

I'm right with you on grafting different types of foliage. There are many reason's why I think it would be great to graft a higher quality of foliage onto our trees whether that be Kishu, Ito or a higher quality native variety.

Sierra Juniper's foliage changing from Green to Blue is showing us what's happening to the tree. The color of the foliage is related to their genetics and their domestication.

First off with Genetics, after collection and recovery some are more green and some are more blue even when if collected right next to each other.

I don't think the color change has to do with elevation change, soil comp, soil temp, etc. I think it's simply just a more domesticated, more rapidly grown foliage. The foliage on Sierra J in rock pockets in the mountains is the product of a lack of water, harsh conditions and confined roots. When we take them home and start to baby them with lots of water and fertilizer they grow out much more vigorously compared with before being collected. It's really the newer growth that comes out blue, while the older interior foliage starts to turn brown and fall off. Eventually the whole tree is blue once all the foliage has been replaced. On occasion you do see bluer foliage naturally coming from mountain trees. Often small little seedlings will have vigorous blue growth up in the mountains.

Attached is a small-likely will be Shohin sized Sierra Juniper. Collected June 2017. It's in pure pumice. Near the tips the color has gotten more blue, the interior older growth is still more green. Apologize, not the clearest pic to see this, but the best I had on my phone. I'm grafting this with Kishu.

The tree isn’t domesticated though, in the same way that a lion in a zoo isn’t domesticated. A dog is domesticated. It’s genetics have been altered over generations because living in proximity to humans selected different traits as being the most useful ones for its survival. The lion is just a wild animal in a cage. A wild collected tree remains a wild tree when it is put into a pot. The genetics haven’t changed. Phenotypic expression has.

 

[TN_Jim]

The tree isn’t domesticated though, in the same way that a lion in a zoo isn’t domesticated. A dog is domesticated. It’s genetics have been altered over generations because living in proximity to humans selected different traits as being the most useful ones for its survival. The lion is just a wild animal in a cage. A wild collected tree remains a wild tree when it is put into a pot. The genetics haven’t changed. Phenotypic expression has.

Was thinking phenotypic plasticity too..not inherent genetics on turning blue exactly.

This paper, albeit relatively older, adresses this in the form of epicuticular wax in relation to light exposure and color.

Also, plants reflect the colors of light that they don’t need (devils advo. -able) to utilize.

It makes sense that a tree would be plastic in its adaptation to less harsh environment —don’t waste resources, fall into the evolutionary history waiting in dna to be expressed, adapt & allocate....

However, if turning blue is not an indication of any overall health decline...what is? I would think the worst scenario from the transition from mountain, would be in the ability of tree to breathe (stomata) the same, we can hypothetically reproduce water, soil, food relatively well if in right order.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/55/2/407.full.pdf

 

[wireme]

Was thinking phenotypic plasticity too..not inherent genetics on turning blue exactly.

This paper, albeit relatively older, adresses this in the form of epicuticular wax in relation to light exposure and color.

Also, plants reflect the colors of light that they don’t need (devils advo. -able) to utilize.

It makes sense that a tree would be plastic in its adaptation to less harsh environment —don’t waste resources, fall into the evolutionary history waiting in dna to be expressed, adapt & allocate....

However, if turning blue is not an indication of any overall health decline...what is? I would think the worst scenario from the transition from mountain, would be in the ability of tree to breathe (stomata) the same, we can hypothetically reproduce water, soil, food relatively well if in right order.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/plantphysiol/55/2/407.full.pdf

I haven’t seen the change of colour due to transplant in RMJ. If they are blue in the mountains they’re blue in my yard. Mid summer the blues are getting nearly green but most of the year blue, I like the blue.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My RMJ foliage hasn’t changed in the 5 years since I collected them in western South Dakota.

However, when I buy Shimpakus from Brent in CA, the foliage is plumper in texture and brighter green. Over a few years in AL, the foliage gets a little “ropier” and bluer. We discussed it once, and concluded it may be the elevation and UV differences between his nursery and my garden. Somewhere I have a photo of one “out of the box” from him, alongside one that came from him a few years earlier.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

However, when I buy Shimpakus from Brent in CA, the foliage is plumper in texture and brighter green. Over a few years in AL, the foliage gets a little “ropier” and bluer. We discussed it once, and concluded it may be the elevation and UV differences between his nursery and my garden. Somewhere I have a photo of one “out of the box” from him, alongside one that came from him a few years earlier.

Not sure about your soil pH, but if it is neutral to a little high, try an acid fertilizer. I'd be curious to hear if you see a big change.

 

[Adair M]

Not to stray from the subject of native junipers, but I’ve seen similiar effects with Japanese White Pine. I have two JWP that have come from California that were distinctively blue in California. After 6 months at my house, they are much greener! Still have a hint of blue, but only when you compare them with another tree.

On the subject of “taming” trees... the point was made that by collecting them and nurturing them we haven’t changed their genetics. But, that’s EXACTLY what we do when we graft on different foliage!

 

[Cable]

My plants change color all the time. They’re often green in the nursery and then turn pretty shades of yellow and brown in my yard. I suspect genetics.

 

[sorce]

I haven’t seen the change of colour due to transplant in RMJ. If they are blue in the mountains they’re blue in my yard. Mid summer the blues are getting nearly green but most of the year blue, I like the blue.

You are at a similair elevation though yes?

Elevation and UV must play a role.

Great thread!

Fuck that fake ass shit!

Just sayin.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

I've seen blue shimpaku junipers from being in the shade.
Tamaracks get more blue from more acid in the soil.
Blue spruce get more blue the more sun they get.
You can get hinoki cypress to turn blue by giving them Epsom salts.
It must be the elevation and U V. for sure.

 

[sorce]

must be the elevation and U V. for sure

Play a role.....

Many things do....

That's why this is so interesting.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

Play a role.....

Many things do....

That's why this is so interesting.

Sorce

It could be any number of things.
I personally think in this case its genetics.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

My RMJ foliage hasn’t changed in the 5 years since I collected them in western South Dakota.

However, when I buy Shimpakus from Brent in CA, the foliage is plumper in texture and brighter green. Over a few years in AL, the foliage gets a little “ropier” and bluer. We discussed it once, and concluded it may be the elevation and UV differences between his nursery and my garden. Somewhere I have a photo of one “out of the box” from him, alongside one that came from him a few years earlier.

What about humidity differences and what causes the differences in color? Some foliage color is due to waxy exudates that help prevent dessication, is that a factor in the color differences in these junipers? I have no idea, just advancing a hypothesis.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Not sure about your soil pH, but if it is neutral to a little high, try an acid fertilizer. I'd be curious to hear if you see a big change.

Cuticles respond differently in different environments. Indoors they can even be non-existent.
When we move plants from the lab to the greenhouses, they'll need to establish the cuticle again. Plants go from crisp lettuce green, to dusty greyish within a week or so.

As for taming junipers: we don't change genetics, but we change everything else. This causes an epigenetic response (genes activated by environmental cues). Hence the change in behavior. Most plants have multiple systems as a backup, and use them when they're needed. However, when these systems are no longer needed, they're de-activated. Usually because they use too much energy, and the other route of action takes less.
We humans have the same kind of thing going on; give us proteins and oils for food, and our body activates different enzymes to break them down and convert them into usable materials. Give us carbohydrates, and the system adapts, releasing enzymes to degrade those. Or in sports for example: when our blood doesn't carry enough oxygen for normal muscular 'combustion' we skip from glucose to lactate as an energy source.
Plants have similar systems in check. If one auxin fails or can't be produced due to lacking resources, the genes for another auxin are over-expressed, causing it to try and compensate. If that process holds forever (like it does sometimes in specific cultivars, basically every cultivar originates from some over- or underexpression) there's no need for taming a juniper. If it doesn't hold, you'd need to figure out what process is causing the desired trait. It could be a local fungus that produces a hormone, a bacteria, maybe even a type of yeast, or maybe the dry air or lack of a certain mineral. Sometimes it's even bugs that can cause that kind of behavior, some caterpillars have specific enzymes that force plants to grow differently, putting out more foliage and thus more to eat for the caterpillar.

Cultural history time:
Remember how the stock market came into existence? Those silly Dutch had a tulip population with a virus. They didn't know it had said virus. The world went crazy about obtaining (forgive my poor memory) the striped 'cultivar' which they weren't able to reproduce from seed (virusses don't penetrate seeds and usually aren't transferred through seeds, they didn't know). The first market bubble came into existence, and burst as well, causing the first market crash. The Dutch used to store their bulbs all together on piles. Their lack of sanitary methods caused the virus to spread, and created this 'cultivar' out of nothing. Some orchids can't even germinate without specialized fungi, and some plants need to be blasted with sunlight to stay smaller. If you take a plant away from a system, the plant will try to build a new one, but to do that, it sometimes needs to change itself as well. Adaptation, at such an age. I wish people would be as good at that as plants were.

Fun fact: our microbes do that too, freshly born babies get "aged" bacteria from their parents, bacteria which 'revert' back to their original settings meant for a freshly built and original human body.
Another fun fact: Chinese people for instance, usually can't process milk after the age of 12. Simply because their bodies don't produce lactose-degrading enzymes. Was that enzyme called lactase? I think it is. That's usually no issue, because the Chinese don't have a lot of dairy or milk on their menu. If they would keep drinking milk past that age - when they move to western countries for example - sometimes their body adapts and keeps producing lactase to break down the lactose. If not, they'll have diarrhea for a few generations until suddenly, their genetic expression changes to not dampen a enzymatic lactose response, and to actively dampen an allergic response. Those Chinese were very angry when the Dutch offered them milk to repay for the burst bubble.
Plants have the same tricks built in; exposure can cause a change, and exposure for prolonged periods can make that change to last forever and be passed on genetically. Just like in the cuticle as mentioned above. How's that for a complete circular story?

 

[Clicio]

Great thread!!!

 

[wireme]

You are at a similair elevation though yes?

Yep, that’s right. One or two come from lower elevation than my yard even. Generally somewhere within 2000’.

 

[TN_Jim]

Yep, that’s right. One or two come from lower elevation than my yard even. Generally somewhere within 2000’.

The intensity of UV blue-spectrum radiance (some conifers are not digging or using, and can even be a detriment)
315-400 nm, increases about 10% every 2000 meters.

Solution, get waxier/bluer..and dissipate the increasing UV as elev. increases.

So bringing it down from the mountain would seem a bonus for the health of such a tree..

The bigger issue of a juniper in a pot I would think, would be bringing your tree from the valley or lower elev. up to a home on the mountain.