Need timing help for chopping.

[Kodama16]

Hey guys I went over all my books again and did a lot of searching on the forum but I'm having trouble. I can't find the answer to if I should trunk chop my maple trees befor there buds swell or wait till they popped.
I'm wanting to cut one of my trees down completely to a few inches from the base. I don't want to keep the top at all. So I'm not going to air layer this one.
So should I just cut it befor it comes out of dormancy?

Thanks guys.

 

[garywood]

Where are you?

 

[Beng]

i heard Petet Warren telling the audience at GSBF you have two weeks from leaf fall to do serious pruning on maples after that its too late and you need to wait till spring. His logic was by pruning within 2 weeks from leaf fall the tree has time to reallocate its energy to the existing branches and buds.

 

[Kodama16]

Hey guys. Sorry I though I had my profile updated. Ill get on that soon. I'm in Louisiana. My tree are already dormant. I was going to chop it befor buds popped. But now I'm reconsidering. And none of the books say when to do chops.

 

[edprocoat]

i heard Petet Warren telling the audience at GSBF you have two weeks from leaf fall to do serious pruning on maples after that its too late and you need to wait till spring. His logic was by pruning within 2 weeks from leaf fall the tree has time to reallocate its energy to the existing branches and buds.

Beng would this be any concern in a chop? There would be no existing branches or buds to reallocate anything to or from in a chop situation like Kodama asked about.

ed

 

[Beng]

Beng would this be any concern in a chop? There would be no existing branches or buds to reallocate anything to or from in a chop situation like Kodama asked about.

ed

I would think that could kill the tree but i've never tried to chop that hard in the fall. Since growth slows or stops in most areas during the winter how will the tree produce new buds? I doubt it would, i think he was referring to reallocating existing energy to existing buds. He stressed the use of sealant when pruning in the fall.

 

[typoolVT]

I would visit THIS one BC I had the same question..

 

[edprocoat]

I would think that could kill the tree but i've never tried to chop that hard in the fall. Since growth slows or stops in most areas during the winter how will the tree produce new buds? I doubt it would, i think he was referring to reallocating existing energy to existing buds. He stressed the use of sealant when pruning in the fall.

He was asking about chopping it down a few inches from the base. I do not know about this, I have seen some Ohio red maples get chopped nearly ground level last year when they cleared the ground next to the road in mid November. These things have come back so fast you would not know they were ever butchered. There was about an inch or two of base from about an inch up to maybe five inches across, some were multi trunked and they were cut off real rough using one of those telescoping mowers they trim the highway shoulders with.

ed

 

[Smoke]

i heard Petet Warren telling the audience at GSBF you have two weeks from leaf fall to do serious pruning on maples after that its too late and you need to wait till spring. His logic was by pruning within 2 weeks from leaf fall the tree has time to reallocate its energy to the existing branches and buds.

Could you clarify this to the best of your recollection. I just want to make sure I understand this statement correctly. It would also be helpful to know if this is his logic or facts. I respect Peter Warren and have seen him work many times. Got to spend some time with him at Oregon Bonsai in 2009.

 

[63pmp]

If I'm doing big chops like you are suggesting, I do them when I repot, as the buds are swelling. Pruning the large roots back as well, while leaving thin roots uncut (except to fit in the pot), medium roots medium cuts etc. I then put the potted plant into a sealed plastic bag to maintain humidity for about 6 weeks, make sure there is no direct sunlight on the bag or it will cook the plant. Basically treat them like a big cutting. I Leave more root mass for Japanese maple then for tridents.

I think it's important that there is some hormonal stimulation within the plant before the chop, otherwise there are no root tips or buds to kick start the spring growth process. It is the buds that stimulate the roots, so if buds are swollen, then roots are going, or soon will be, time to chop.

Paul

 

[MACH5]

I have usually waited until buds start to swell.

 

[Gaitano]

Here's a good article to read regarding this question.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

It's about halfway down, "when to make the trunk cuts".

 

[Nybonsai12]

I have usually waited until buds start to swell.

This is what I have always heard when doing a chop. wait until buds start to swell and hack it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe waiting for buds to swell was ideal for repotting maples as well.

 

[Lazylightningny]

If you wait until bud swell, havent you just depleted root energy that you are now going to chop away?

 

[Nybonsai12]

If you wait until bud swell, havent you just depleted root energy that you are now going to chop away?

My understanding is that the roots have the most energy when the buds are swelling. After they open all that energy is going to develop the leaves and the shoots. By chopping off what you don't need before they open, that much more energy is than diverted to the areas you want it most and not wasted on what was to be removed.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

 

[Beng]

Could you clarify this to the best of your recollection. I just want to make sure I understand this statement correctly. It would also be helpful to know if this is his logic or facts. I respect Peter Warren and have seen him work many times. Got to spend some time with him at Oregon Bonsai in 2009.

Hey Smoke, honestly I did not hear his lecture from start to finish. I was bouncing back and forth between his room and watching Suthin style a monster juniper.

He had a chart on the wall going over in detail the 4 types of cut paste he uses. Unfortunately I missed this part of the lecture and demonstration. I was there though when he went over fall pruning.

He said that you have 2 weeks from leaf drop to trim and style deciduous trees. The branches won't be quite as brittle at this time, and you give the tree enough time to reallocate energy for the following spring. By waiting till the spring to do styling and trimming you are essentially throwing away energy.

He said something like this, this isn't a word for word quote but it's the best I can remember. Perhaps someone else on here took notes and can detail more of his lecture. "Your tree just spent all year working hard to build up reserves. By trimming within the two week window after leaf drop your trees have time to reallocate those reserves before they travel to the new buds. By trimming as buds are swelling the energy has already travelled up the roots and trunk to the live buds and you're throwing all or most of that energy your tree worked so hard to build up away."

 

[Kodama16]

If I was to cut before the bud swell do you think the dormant buds under the trunk skin would swell?

 

[Beng]

If I was to cut before the bud swell do you think the dormant buds under the trunk skin would swell?

If your cutting to the soil line i'm not sure this would apply, but in theory it would... If your leaving a number of branches and buds I think it does. He wasn't doing a drastic trunk chop during his demo. He cut off lots of branches both big and small and reduced the tree considerably but didn't cut it to the ground by any means. Smoke who commented above has done this kind of drastic chop a lot and I would go by what he says for a chop that severe. Peter comments are more for hard pruning then drastic chopping I believe but in theory it could apply to both.

 

[MACH5]

My understanding is that the roots have the most energy when the buds are swelling. After they open all that energy is going to develop the leaves and the shoots. By chopping off what you don't need before they open, that much more energy is than diverted to the areas you want it most and not wasted on what was to be removed.

Someone please correct me if this is wrong.

This has been my logic and understanding. Certainly an area of debate much like soil and fertilizer. I can say that, at least with Japanese maples, I have never had problems doing chops at bud swell. These trees are so strong and vigorous at this time of year that they will respond readily and at times quite aggressively in my experience. With that being said, I have never done a chop so close to the ground. I suspect failure in this case may be more due to how much can the tree take and a bit less on being so specific on exact timing. So... you may want to do a less aggressive chop and wait for the tree's response.

 

[Paulpash]

If you have ever had die back after substantial chops on acers like I've had, cutting back this low would give me real concern. I usually cut a few inches above & make the chop straight across then make good on any dieback later by carving it to show a good transition. If it doesn't die back I rub out the unwanted buds above and only allow the bud I want to get strong. This is what Brent does btw.

It also depends on what you want from the new growth - vigourous for the lower trunk section or shorter internodes for finer sections further up the tree.