New American bonsai

[Smoke]

Who has verified that these are being taken with permission? I know for a fact that trees are being taken without permit in many cases and it is definitely multiples of 1000(maybe tens of thousands was an exaggeration) as there are a handful or two of guys in so cal that nobody even knows about that have all claimed hundreds of trees each and that's just in the last 5 years. I would say several hundred a year are being collected statewide for the last 20-30 years, do the math. I based my couple of dozen off your photos as that's all I have to go by

Do these guys have people like Peter Warren, Ryan Neil, Walter Pall and Micheal Hagedorn promoting their trees and are they mass marketing them such as at Natures Way?

Further..have you been to their house and seen these thousands? ...or is it hearsay?

You have only seen about 8 photo's. You havn't even seen the green stuff. That lot of trees for Walter alone had more than 50 trees in it.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have predicted for years that a time is coming when collecting from the wild will become a thing of the past, a prediction I hope to be wrong but in view of some of the things I am hearing, or reading here, I think the writing might be on the wall and we are the authors.

I have made the argument that we have a run-a-way government filled with bureaucrats who can do what they do with impunity, all it takes is for one of them to get a bug in their ear and all of this will be gone. Those of you who live in California are more than aware how brutal and unyielding these people can be when they think they are on a crusade. Ask the one time growers of nut trees in the valley, and the loggers in the North West.

 

[Vance Wood]

Do these guys have people like Peter Warren, Ryan Neil, Walter Pall and Micheal Hagedorn promoting their trees and are they mass marketing them such as at Natures Way?

Further..have you been to their house and seen these thousands? ...or is it hearsay?

You have only seen about 8 photo's. You havn't even seen the green stuff. That lot of trees for Walter alone had more than 50 trees in it.

I agree Al, but you should know that there are those who want to make law on the basis of accusations; to hell with the truth, the truth only gets in the way.

 

[coh]

Who has verified that these are being taken with permission? I know for a fact that trees are being taken without permit in many cases and it is definitely multiples of 1000(maybe tens of thousands was an exaggeration) as there are a handful or two of guys in so cal that nobody even knows about that have all claimed hundreds of trees each and that's just in the last 5 years. I would say several hundred a year are being collected statewide for the last 20-30 years, do the math. I based my couple of dozen off your photos as that's all I have to go by

Can you clarify this? Are you referring to trees being collected illegally (without permit) in California or in Oregon (or both)?

Chris

 

[John Ruger]

Then who's purchasing the bulk of the collected trees? I've yet to see anything of this quality for sale, not that I can afford it.

 

[nathanbs]

Both legally and illegally in California. The weirdest part about a large portion of these collected trees is that they are being hoarded and not sold. It's almost as if it's a competition to who can collect the most

 

[Vance Wood]

Both legally and illegally in California. The weirdest part about a large portion of these collected trees is that they are being hoarded and not sold. It's almost as if it's a competition to who can collect the most

Not meaning to jump in your face on this one but where is your evidence? That's a pretty specific statement. However; let us assume that this is true----so what?

Why would somebody who is not interested in bonsai want a mountain of old collected Pines and Junipers, unless they see what I fear and think they will make some big money when collecting is outlawed? This is a risky investment at best. Look to the South West where it is illegal to poses an Eagle feather even if picked up off the high way. So too could a collected tree. As to hoarding: How many of these trees are a collection and how many could be considered hoarding? Who is it that is going to determine that number? Then of course there is the bottom line, or should we say the crux of the argument: Are these trees legal or not? This too demands proof and it is a dangerous and unfair statement to make without evidence.

I fear, my friend, that your zeal for the environment my be clouding your common sense.

 

[jkd2572]

Get em how ever you can if you have access. A bulldozer makes a mess out of 150 year old trees. So does forest fires.

 

[nathanbs]

Not meaning to jump in your face on this one but where is your evidence? That's a pretty specific statement. However; let us assume that this is true----so what?

Its ok I'm starting to see that's how you always converse on this forum, atleast with me. It's known by anyone thats well involved in bonsai in southern California that a certain group of guys from a certain Asian desent do this heavy collecting and hoarding.

Why would somebody who is not interested in bonsai want a mountain of old collected Pines and Junipers, unless they see what I fear and think they will make some big money when collecting is outlawed? This is a risky investment at best. Look to the South West where it is illegal to poses an Eagle feather even if picked up off the high way. So too could a collected tree. As to hoarding: How many of these trees are a collection and how many could be considered hoarding? Who is it that is going to determine that number? Then of course there is the bottom line, or should we say the crux of the argument: Are these trees legal or not? This too demands proof and it is a dangerous and unfair statement to make without evidence.

I fear, my friend, that your zeal for the environment my be clouding your common sense.

not sure what you are talking about as I merely brought this all up as a sort of diversion to the finger being pointed at R. Knight. My point was there is and has been a lot of trees collected and killed by some of our famous founding american bonsai fathers and some not so famous much more so than Randy has done and possibly could do. And the point isn't legal or illegal who cares about that, it's whether it's being done in vain or without proper knowledge and the trees are just dying or wasting away in some guys back yard. At least with Randy the trees have a better chance of survival and are ending up in high end collections

 

[nathanbs]

Further..have you been to their house and seen these thousands? ...or is it hearsay?

It's not thousands at one house. It's thousands total over all the years. I have seen close to a hundred at one guys house that I found on Craigslist, never seen him before or after going to his house. While there we talked at length about his buddies that go collecting every weekend that have much more than him. David nguy has quite a collection of atleast 100 or more. Bruce Hisayasu magically gets California junipers all the time from old time bonsaists. One time a year ago he had 30 new ones overnight. Just a few examples. Rest is hearsay but from people I know and trust.

 

[monza]

With all the unscripted, melodramatic and "humorous" situations, documented actually happened type situations to bad we don't all live a little closer, we'd have a hit reality tv show...Bonsai Nuts!

 

[QuintinBonsai]

That'd be pretty cool if bonsai had it's own TV show. Though I doubt it would last due to poor reception here in America.

 

[Walter Pall]

Smoke,
what an own goal you shot here!!
You have no clue about these junipers.
Look at these - they are all dead!?

http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/rocky-mountain-juniper-01.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/rocky-mountain-juniper-07.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/rocky-mountain-juniper-08.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/rocky-mountain-juniper-10.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/rocky-mountain-juniper-11.html

How come all these trees were styled shortly after they died and live happily since?

 

[Walter Pall]

This batch I selected in December 2011 for Nature's Way Nursery. It was not cheap. How come I am such an idiot selecting dead trees for Jim Doyle. Will he ever ask me to select for him again?

Well, how lucky I was. ALL of these trees arrived in Harrisburg three months later and ALL still are alive. Great luck! Or was it?

Would you have selected them?

 

[bob shimon]

My Two Cents worth

I have been following this thread for the last couple of days and find it interesting the different directions it has gone. Having worked fairly closely with Ryan since his return from Japan, he has told me that every tree he has, except for maybe one or two, are for sale. This is his business, it is what he does for a living. Why is it an issue that he has a large inventory for sale and has worked hard to develop these trees?
I know Randy Knight fairly well, and my understanding is that he collects on private property with permission.
The following I am certain of; Zack and I also sell Ryan a large number of trees, including redwoods, sierra junipers, pygmy cypress and oaks. EVERY tree that we collect is by permission, and we are responsible collectors. For every sierra that I collect, i probably pass on a hundred of them, and our survial rate is 75-95%, depending on the species.
Perhaps these discussions would be better served if folks stuck to facts rather than speculation.

 

[Walter Pall]

One more example. Only an idiot would select this one for good money. Well, I did. And it lived happily four months later.
How lucky I am! Dead trees live after they looked very dead.

 

[buddhamonk]

Ouch. That's too many dead trees for my taste. That last one, it breaks my heart...

Al, you just love to piss on this love-fest party, don't you?

I am afraid that if you ask the guy about the survival %, he may not want to give you an honest answer. How can you check, anyway?

P.S. Just for the sake of balanced reporting, somebody should post these dead trees on the IBC thread. I'm afraid to do it, because they are not my pictures, and besides, I would probably be banned. How about you, Smoke?

Those trees are not even dead...

 

[Anthony]

On our side,

it would be buttonwood and haematoxlyon, and you can pay $2.00 [ 35 cents US] for a permit and take a tree or two.
Both plants when mature, can handle driftwood styles.

However, the removal without permits was so bad, that the Horticultural society and the various villages around the island began to complain about the destruction.

It was a something for nothing situation. Dig out for a few minutes and then sell as soon as possible. Plus, many wanted more and more because of the age and the feeling of being like the ancient Chinese.

Most of this happened back in the 1990's, because a certain magazine highlighted conocarpus as the New World shimpaku. Just to inform, many of the guys doing bonsai down started some time in the early 80's. We have a very high Chinese population and mixed Chinese population, so folk have been aware of Penjing since the 1900's, and our Chinese population is also increasing again, has been for the last 10 years.

Today, we actively discourage tree collecting from the wind blown coasts and areas where you can get haematoxlyon.

You can still go to a few yards of those who should know better and see a corner filled with dead buttonwoods, set aside for phoenix grafts. It is pathetic.

The problem is the drive to own age and make money.
It is equally unpleasant to see it in other countries and in those who should "grow" better.
Anyhow that's all I have to say.
Anthony

 

[DaveV]

I don't know if Bill Valivanis has a lot of collected trees, but I know from watching his youtube videos that several of his trees are from cutting or seedlings 30-40 years old now. I am not trying to send a message, but I find Bill's trees much more enjoyable to view and to learn the history of his trees.

 

[Bill S]

Have to do some reading I guess, but does anyone know of anyone that grew that 350 year old bonsai. from seed?????