nathanbs
Omono
Growing is terrific if you like fast growing evergreen or deciduous trees but if you like conifers, specifically junipers good luck.
New American bonsai
- Thread starter rockm
- Start date
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for the posting this, as it's good to hear directly from someone who is out there collecting. It would be great to get input from Randy Knight himself...so far everything has been second hand at best. For those of us on the potential receiving end of some of these trees, it's pretty much impossible to determine where the truth lies as everyone has an agenda of some type. People involved in the collecting and selling obviously have a financial interest and are best served by providing evidence of high success rates and responsible collecting practices. I know if I found out that the survival rate of collected trees was 50% or trees were being collected illegaly, I'd be much less likely to consider purchasing one. Others here (and elsewhere) seem to have their own axes to grind for personal or political reasons (or both).
Chris
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Wow this thread has garnered quite the response! I am so thankful to see Walter and Smoke and some of the others that have been absent for awhile. Hey you guys teach me some more stuff about trees! 
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
We seem to be back to the age old argument, which is better; Yamadori or other----?
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
IT DEPENDS.
It depends on what makes you happy,
what your goals are,
how much time you have, and
how much money & effort you want to spend.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"We seem to be back to the age old argument, which is better; Yamadori or other----?"
The argument, good or bad, has a taken on a dimension of whether its ethical at all to use Yamadori...
I get almost apoplectic at some of the more empty-headed anti-yamadori comments, but I also cringe at some of the worst case scenarios involving questionable collection practices.
The argument, good or bad, has a taken on a dimension of whether its ethical at all to use Yamadori...
I get almost apoplectic at some of the more empty-headed anti-yamadori comments, but I also cringe at some of the worst case scenarios involving questionable collection practices.
John Ruger
Shohin
- Messages
- 470
- Reaction score
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Regulate it.
Draw up the requirements for culling yamadori, issues licenses-with tags- like deer hunting, fine the transgressors as you would poaching, confiscate their digging tools, planter boxes, planting medium and bonsai tools. Hire a new crew of Dept. of Agriculture officers to police the known prime picking grounds (hell, it's more jobs), or better yet, hire out the policing to a private detective firm and this way we don't have to worry about more tax dollars. Post the mugshots and names of violators in Bonsai Today (or whatever the hell publication exists) for the bonsai world to take note of and maybe encourage the rescinding of their bonsai club rights.
WE CAN WIN!
disclaimer: too much caffeine, too many exams and papers to grade............
Draw up the requirements for culling yamadori, issues licenses-with tags- like deer hunting, fine the transgressors as you would poaching, confiscate their digging tools, planter boxes, planting medium and bonsai tools. Hire a new crew of Dept. of Agriculture officers to police the known prime picking grounds (hell, it's more jobs), or better yet, hire out the policing to a private detective firm and this way we don't have to worry about more tax dollars. Post the mugshots and names of violators in Bonsai Today (or whatever the hell publication exists) for the bonsai world to take note of and maybe encourage the rescinding of their bonsai club rights.
WE CAN WIN!
disclaimer: too much caffeine, too many exams and papers to grade............
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nathanbs
Omono
Who pays the private detective firm? This will never happen due to no money to spend regulating this. Fortunately we have millions of Cal. Junipers there's no way they will ever be impacted by bonsai, much more likely by developers. And even that is unlikely as they grow in some pretty god awful places that will likely not be developed in our lifetime, most of them at least.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Have you noticed that the ragged terrain that used to be considered as unsuitable for development are now the prime locations?
nathanbs
Omono
yeah foothills always provide nice views and are a nice change to the flat desert. Small pockets may be effected but there is just so much open land where these grow.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"I don't know if Bill Valivanis has a lot of collected trees, but I know from watching his youtube videos that several of his trees are from cutting or seedlings 30-40 years old now. I am not trying to send a message, but I find Bill's trees much more enjoyable to view and to learn the history of his trees."
All well and good, but this is really an exceptional case. Bill has been doing bonsai PROFESSIONALLY for some time. His original cuttings and saplings were grown with a bit of a higher level of understanding than most bonsai newbies. The man studied in Japan, had a world-class Japanese mentor in the U.S. All that contributed to how those legacy trees have been grown and composed over the years. Bonsai is what Bill is devoted to 24/7. Most of us would like to do that, but most of us can't, which generally means our trees aren't going to turn out like Bill's...
"Your results may vary" is apt in this case. I have grown material from whips for almost 20 years now. The results bear every mistake I've made --some very annoying and uncorrectable. That's the problem with relying solely on self-grown stuff. Self-raised trees do get character after a while, BUT they will never have the same feeling as a "real" old yamadori.
No amount of artificial treatment, visual trickery or even decades of age can compare to hundreds of years of real age. THAT is the appeal of yamadori trees. Old collected trees are just have a different feeling. If you've never worked with one, then it's hard to describe.
And as for a tree's history---really? John Wesley Hardin may have run past my Texas live oak trying to get away from the law. One of my collected boxwood grew overlooking the primary North/South highway during the civil war. Robert E. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia trampled through on their way to shell D.C. and the Union Army of the Potomac marched south to the battles of Fredericksburg and The Wilderness while that boxwood watched.
All well and good, but this is really an exceptional case. Bill has been doing bonsai PROFESSIONALLY for some time. His original cuttings and saplings were grown with a bit of a higher level of understanding than most bonsai newbies. The man studied in Japan, had a world-class Japanese mentor in the U.S. All that contributed to how those legacy trees have been grown and composed over the years. Bonsai is what Bill is devoted to 24/7. Most of us would like to do that, but most of us can't, which generally means our trees aren't going to turn out like Bill's...
"Your results may vary" is apt in this case. I have grown material from whips for almost 20 years now. The results bear every mistake I've made --some very annoying and uncorrectable. That's the problem with relying solely on self-grown stuff. Self-raised trees do get character after a while, BUT they will never have the same feeling as a "real" old yamadori.
No amount of artificial treatment, visual trickery or even decades of age can compare to hundreds of years of real age. THAT is the appeal of yamadori trees. Old collected trees are just have a different feeling. If you've never worked with one, then it's hard to describe.
And as for a tree's history---really? John Wesley Hardin may have run past my Texas live oak trying to get away from the law. One of my collected boxwood grew overlooking the primary North/South highway during the civil war. Robert E. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia trampled through on their way to shell D.C. and the Union Army of the Potomac marched south to the battles of Fredericksburg and The Wilderness while that boxwood watched.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Attila Soos
Omono
That's great news.
I was assuming that the poster who said that they were dead, actually verified that assessment. I have no real way of knowing it, since a bronze colored foliage could be on both live and dead trees.
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Attila Soos
Omono
That's right. And they are neither Japanese, nor Chinese...You have to go further south.
The good thing about that, I guess, is that heavy collecting should drive the price down to affordable levels...at least for the time being.
I don't see this ending any time soon, or at least, another 10-15 years. After that, ...who knows.
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John Ruger
Shohin
- Messages
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That's right. And they are neither Japanese, nor Chinese...You have to go further south.
The good thing about that, I guess, is that heavy collecting should drive the price down to affordable levels...at least for the time being.
I don't see this ending any time soon, or at least, another 10-15 years. After that, ...who knows.
Are they trying to export this stuff?
nathanbs
Omono
No they are just hoarding them like I mentioned earlier, as if in some sort of an ego competition with other guys of the same southern Asian desent.
bob shimon
Mame
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- 122
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over reacting
First of all I agree with Dario, in that it is not a question of which is better, yamadori or the other. It is what you prefer, I think that yamadori make superior bonsai. You can't duplicate what mother nature creates over many years, that's just my opinion, its not right or wrong.
As for the collecting, I have heard of the guys in Southern Ca who collect without permission and collect a lot of the Ca Juniper. I don't have first hand knowledge of this. Those of us, and there aren't that many, who collect as a profession do it in a responsible way. If you are looking to do this over a period of time, it doesn't make sense to collect without permission or collect trees in a way that doesn't give them a chance of surviving.
If you think of the number of collectors, and the number of trees collected in proportion to the number of trees out there, it's a drop in the bucket. When we collect the redwoods, we take trees that have been damaged or broken, and will never develop into full size trees.
Some of you who are not collectors need to take a deep breath and step back as there seems to be a bit over reacting here.
First of all I agree with Dario, in that it is not a question of which is better, yamadori or the other. It is what you prefer, I think that yamadori make superior bonsai. You can't duplicate what mother nature creates over many years, that's just my opinion, its not right or wrong.
As for the collecting, I have heard of the guys in Southern Ca who collect without permission and collect a lot of the Ca Juniper. I don't have first hand knowledge of this. Those of us, and there aren't that many, who collect as a profession do it in a responsible way. If you are looking to do this over a period of time, it doesn't make sense to collect without permission or collect trees in a way that doesn't give them a chance of surviving.
If you think of the number of collectors, and the number of trees collected in proportion to the number of trees out there, it's a drop in the bucket. When we collect the redwoods, we take trees that have been damaged or broken, and will never develop into full size trees.
Some of you who are not collectors need to take a deep breath and step back as there seems to be a bit over reacting here.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
"Do these guys have people like Peter Warren, Ryan Neil, Walter Pall and Micheal Hagedorn promoting their trees and are they mass marketing them such as at Natures Way?"
Just noticed this and kind of scratched my head. "Mass marketing?"?? I've been to Nature's Way, have seen the Walter trees there. I don't think "Mass Marketing" really applies fairly to what's going on. The two or three dozen or so Pondys, junipers and spruce at Jim Doyle's place aren't really so much of a mass as they are a good sized group...Most were healthy. Most looked like they'd been there quite a while. I don't think Jim or Walter is making a fortune on them.
There were one or two casualties too, BTW, but no stacks of bodies.
Just noticed this and kind of scratched my head. "Mass marketing?"?? I've been to Nature's Way, have seen the Walter trees there. I don't think "Mass Marketing" really applies fairly to what's going on. The two or three dozen or so Pondys, junipers and spruce at Jim Doyle's place aren't really so much of a mass as they are a good sized group...Most were healthy. Most looked like they'd been there quite a while. I don't think Jim or Walter is making a fortune on them.
There were one or two casualties too, BTW, but no stacks of bodies.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I think it's pretty obvious that the person who posted that original quote has an axe to grind...
I've been to Jim's a couple of times, most recently summer of 2011. He certainly has more than "three dozen or so Pondy's, junipers and spruce", probably a couple hundred. And if you check Walter's blog/website, he mentions that 300 more trees will be delivered there in the spring. Still, hard to consider that mass marketing. It's nice to have a relatively local source for some nice collected material that you can actually see in person before buying. I just hope they are being collected legally and ethically.
Chris
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Attila Soos
Omono
Yes, it's a strange thing, seing these guys having so many of these collected trees. There is a point where it makes no sense to have more of them in one backyard, since there is no way that one can keep up with them. And these are big trees, mostly. Also, there isn't an unlimited supply of buyers or hobbyists down here, and you cannot export them, since this is the only place they can survive.
So, it's just hoarding and competition.
This is not like Japan, where there was a huge market for collected trees because there was a large group of professional artisans who worked and finished these trees, and then sold them to rich collectors. Here, most of the trees are purchased by people who style them and collect them as well. And they are not full time professionals, so there is only a relatively small collection that one person can maintain. So, there is no "bonsai industry" to maintain a large number of show-ready trees, here in the US/California. A lot of these trees will just sit in someone's backyard for many years, without any work on them, beyond the occasional cut-back.
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