Notes from my first bonsai show

[baron]

I'm not familiar with the Swindon winter image bonsai show, but I've learned that one bonsai show certainly isn't like the other...
There's a big difference for example between a Kokofu level or a Sakka Kyokai level of even a Noelanders Trophy.
Next week is another edition of the Trophy btw https://bonsaiassociation.be/trophy/

 

[Woocash]

Funny you compare dog shows to bonsai and then complain about "Expensive." Having grown up as kennel help going to a few hundred dogs shows in my childhood, I have also noticed many parallels to dog/bonsai shows and dog/bonsai people.

for instance, I've heard many people complain about hugely expensive show dogs--which for some breeds can be over $5,000 for a puppy. That price, from a good breeder, is not for the dog itself. Mostly it is for the work, expense and know-how put into producing that dog.

Same is true for GOOD bonsai. Like expensive pure bred dogs, there are a lot of idiots breeding half-pedigreed, diseased and just plain bad looking "show dogs." Same for bonsai stock.

You get into the hobby by taking your lumps learning the difference.

And about the moss, if you're noticing it, the person that applied it did a very very bad job. Mossing, as Adair said, takes time and talent. Many think for a show, you just lay it down like a carpet a week before the show. Should be done MONTHS before to allow it to settle.
A good job is not noticeable and is not just a sheet of monochromatic green fuzz...


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Oh aye, I most definitely get it from an hours spent, work put in, knowledge utilised, materials used viewpoint. It’s just that some to middle, not all, are of a “rougher” nature and are still expensive. So, for the 50 quid I had in my back pocket I’m only going to be getting a piddly little stick that I pass over everyday when scouting or collecting. Whichever way you dress it up, £50, £100, £200+ for a skinny twig is hard for me to make the leap of faith to. I’ll get there though, especially if I ever expect people to pay that for mine!

As for moss, I suspect it was just lack of practice, skill or care on some bonsai, but then what do I know? I might just have really high standards. You may well be right about it not having been in situ for long enough though, I had assumed it was added specifically for the show but months of prep with repotting and the addition of moss makes more sense.

I really got to get me up some mountains and find some old deadwood. There’s nothing like seeing the real thing to understand for yourself.

 

[Woocash]

I'm not familiar with the Swindon winter image bonsai show, but I've learned that one bonsai show certainly isn't like the other...
There's a big difference for example between a Kokofu level or a Sakka Kyokai level of even a Noelanders Trophy.
Next week is another edition of the Trophy btw https://bonsaiassociation.be/trophy/

I think this is the problem for me at the moment - I have nothing to compare to. I think it’s quite a well known show in the UK and has been going for quite a few years now, but I have no idea of standards compared to others. On the Swindon bonsai website all the trees have been photographed https://swindon-bonsai.co.uk/2020/02/23/trees-at-our-winter-show/ (you can just make me out at the back looking at the white pine which won best conifer)

First thing I did when I got home was check when the next Noelanders was. Typical it’s only next week otherwise I’d be taking my girlfriend on a romantic weekend away Next time gadget...

 

[rockm]

Oh aye, I most definitely get it from an hours spent, work put in, knowledge utilised, materials used viewpoint. It’s just that some to middle, not all, are of a “rougher” nature and are still expensive. So, for the 50 quid I had in my back pocket I’m only going to be getting a piddly little stick that I pass over everyday when scouting or collecting. Whichever way you dress it up, £50, £100, £200+ for a skinny twig is hard for me to make the leap of faith to. I’ll get there though, especially if I ever expect people to pay that for mine!

As for moss, I suspect it was just lack of practice, skill or care on some bonsai, but then what do I know? I might just have really high standards. You may well be right about it not having been in situ for long enough though, I had assumed it was added specifically for the show but months of prep with repotting and the addition of moss makes more sense.

I really got to get me up some mountains and find some old deadwood. There’s nothing like seeing the real thing to understand for yourself.

"Whichever way you dress it up, £50, £100, £200+ for a skinny twig is hard for me to make the leap of faith to. I’ll get there though, especially if I ever expect people to pay that for mine!"

Like I said, some show dogs are the real deal, others aren't ;-)

 

[TomB]

but I have no idea of standards compared to others.

It's probably the second or third highest quality show in the UK this year. The best will be Expo in April https://expobonsaiuk.weebly.com
There were a few trees at Swindon that were top-level European standard (e.g. Trophy), but the majority were not.
Incidentally most of the material there for sale was Japanese imports being sold by established traders.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Time is a big factor in bonsai cost. Say you have a 4" mostly finished juniper. Someone had many hours of searching or many years of tending to get it to that point. Hours equals money. Scarcity and demand is also a big factor. I am fortunate to live withing just a few miles of all the bald cypress I could ever want in my lifetime. I have a couple of bonsai buddies that live in this area also. We would not spend $500 ( or even $100) on a bald cypress at any stage of developement. People in ,say, California that have no access and lust after a big bald cypress would maybe jump at the chance to spend JUST $500.

Our club show is just a show......no prizes. Most of us like it that way. It remains a social event for us and a learning experience for the visitors. Prizes sometimes bring high dollar trees and a level of competition that turns me off. But, to each his own.

 

[Adair M]

Time is a big factor in bonsai cost. Say you have a 4" mostly finished juniper. Someone had many hours of searching or many years of tending to get it to that point. Hours equals money. Scarcity and demand is also a big factor. I am fortunate to live withing just a few miles of all the bald cypress I could ever want in my lifetime. I have a couple of bonsai buddies that live in this area also. We would not spend $500 ( or even $100) on a bald cypress at any stage of developement. People in ,say, California that have no access and lust after a big bald cypress would maybe jump at the chance to spend JUST $500.

Our club show is just a show......no prizes. Most of us like it that way. It remains a social event for us and a learning experience for the visitors. Prizes sometimes bring high dollar trees and a level of competition that turns me off. But, to each his own.

What’s wrong with high dollar trees? Isn’t the point of a show to have good trees on display?
I understand that club shows need to be inclusive so that everyone who wants to participate can do so. In fact, everyone should be encouraged to show a tree at the club shows. A novice can learn a great deal about pots, stands, moss, display, tree preparation, etc. I think it’s an integral part of the hobby. Showing also forces you to “try a little harder” to improve your bonsai. It helps you develop your eye and make you perhaps make styling decisions you’ve been procrastinating!

 

[Woocash]

It's probably the second or third highest quality show in the UK this year. The best will be Expo in April https://expobonsaiuk.weebly.com
There were a few trees at Swindon that were top-level European standard (e.g. Trophy), but the majority were not.
Incidentally most of the material there for sale was Japanese imports being sold by established traders.

Cheers Tom. It’s my girlfriend’s birthday that day. I just asked if she wanted to go with me... She said yes So that’ll be fun.
I did notice some of the trees were particularly good. That trident, for example, the Chinese elm, the white pine etc. I’m glad that my eyes weren't deceiving me In regards to overall quality, but it was still really nice to see a varied selection for the first time. Did you have any there?
I suppose Japanese imports will always carry a premium as well, they were nice, but I’m a way off justifying anything like that yet.

 

[leatherback]

Trident maples are ready for sale here in 3-4 years at $100-$300. Pines and junipers for similar prices in 5-8 years.

Guess there is variation everywhere. But this maple cost me all of 50 Eur and will be near a decade:

Taxes at 50% ?? Thank goodness I don't live over there!!

yup. I fail to understand where the money goes. Best bet.. Welfare, healthcare, roads and schools. NearFree education is a bitch

 

[TomB]

Cheers Tom. It’s my girlfriend’s birthday that day. I just asked if she wanted to go with me... She said yes So that’ll be fun.
I did notice some of the trees were particularly good. That trident, for example, the Chinese elm, the white pine etc. I’m glad that my eyes weren't deceiving me In regards to overall quality, but it was still really nice to see a varied selection for the first time. Did you have any there?
I suppose Japanese imports will always carry a premium as well, they were nice, but I’m a way off justifying anything like that yet.

No, I wasn't showing. TBH most bonsai for sale in the UK are imports. Good native collected material commands high prices too, though you can get substantial pieces that are worth having reasonably cheaply. For something worth working on that's been established in a pot for a couple of years though, you'll usually be spending more than the £50 you had with you. Good to hear you can make Expo. I'd expect there'll be more raw material on sale there than there was yesterday, in addition to most of the same professional traders (+more).

PS tell your girlfriend they've got a good burger van there, that will make it a special day out

 

[Tentakelaertje]

the 50 quid that I pass over everyday when scouting or collecting.

Might be onto something there mate.

collecting.

Defo onto something! This is how most of those native top trees end up on the show tables. Looking at Tony T, Steve M, Terry F, Russ F, Jim B, Raymond C and everyone else with top class trees. Most of those have been collected, a lot of them have been bought with trading (collected) material. 10x50 is cool tree money!

I can vouch for the hamburger cart at the Expo as well, those are pretty great! 100% romantic getaway cuisine!

 

[Joe Dupre']

What’s wrong with high dollar trees? Isn’t the point of a show to have good trees on display?
I understand that club shows need to be inclusive so that everyone who wants to participate can do so. In fact, everyone should be encouraged to show a tree at the club shows. A novice can learn a great deal about pots, stands, moss, display, tree preparation, etc. I think it’s an integral part of the hobby. Showing also forces you to “try a little harder” to improve your bonsai. It helps you develop your eye and make you perhaps make styling decisions you’ve been procrastinating!

Absolutely nothing wrong with high dollar trees. It's just a personal preference. I'm not a competitive kind of guy and don't like that kind of vibe in my chosen art. Everyone has the right to do as they please, though.

 

[Woocash]

No, I wasn't showing. TBH most bonsai for sale in the UK are imports. Good native collected material commands high prices too, though you can get substantial pieces that are worth having reasonably cheaply. For something worth working on that's been established in a pot for a couple of years though, you'll usually be spending more than the £50 you had with you. Good to hear you can make Expo. I'd expect there'll be more raw material on sale there than there was yesterday, in addition to most of the same professional traders (+more).

PS tell your girlfriend they've got a good burger van there, that will make it a special day out

Heh we do love a good burger so if that doesn’t sell it I don't know what will!
To be honest I only took money with me because I know what I’m like so it sets a limit of decent or bust. I think because this is my first full season of bonsai care I don’t really want to spend anything unless I know I can look after trees, then I think it’ll be worth it.

 

[Woocash]

Might be onto something there mate.



Defo onto something! This is how most of those native top trees end up on the show tables. Looking at Tony T, Steve M, Terry F, Russ F, Jim B, Raymond C and everyone else with top class trees. Most of those have been collected, a lot of them have been bought with trading (collected) material. 10x50 is cool tree money!

I can vouch for the hamburger cart at the Expo as well, those are pretty great! 100% romantic getaway cuisine!

That’s what I’m thinking. So much good stuff around me it almost seems absurd to spend money when I don't need to. Not that money is the be all and end all. Various things you obviously cant get without time growing from seed or spending a bob or two, but with elm, hawthorn and maples growing wild in abundance I’d be daft not to concentrate on these species, for now at least.

 

[TomB]

When you spend money on bonsai, what you are really buying is time.
Only a small proportion of trees are worth collecting, and only a small proportion of those will make good bonsai. Turning collected material into a good bonsai may easily take 20 years.
So either way you are paying, either in money or time.

I’m on the time route because I don’t have money but if you do that its important to choose the right material at the start. It’s disheartening to realise after a decade that you’re stuck with something that will never really be any good because of poor decisions made long ago. But that’s a topic for another thread.

 

[Tentakelaertje]

That’s what I’m thinking. So much good stuff around me it almost seems absurd to spend money when I don't need to. Not that money is the be all and end all. Various things you obviously cant get without time growing from seed or spending a bob or two, but with elm, hawthorn and maples growing wild in abundance I’d be daft not to concentrate on these species, for now at least.

Definitely! Ash too, Josef Burschl, amongst others, has grown some really sweet ashes.
Look into airlayering as well, Sean S has been layering some incredible stuff the past years, especially elm. Harry Harrington occasionally has some of those on his insta page, well worth checking it out.

 

[rockm]

That’s what I’m thinking. So much good stuff around me it almost seems absurd to spend money when I don't need to. Not that money is the be all and end all. Various things you obviously cant get without time growing from seed or spending a bob or two, but with elm, hawthorn and maples growing wild in abundance I’d be daft not to concentrate on these species, for now at least.

You're wrong. Common does NOT mean worthwhile.

What you will begin to realize as you start to get an "eye" for good and great trees is that the VAST majority of the trees around you are NOT worth the trouble of digging up. I'd bet I've got access to hundreds of more acres of land that you with dozens more species and millions of trees. I've looked at my fair share of bonsai candidates. Only about 1 percent of the trees on that land were worth the trouble. Most of the "borderline" trees would have had to have significant redevelopment done if they were collected.

You don't have to spend money on anything, but there is a cost in collecting trees. For the most part that cost is time and effort. With those "expensive high end trees" those two concerns are not nearly as high, or even present...

 

[Woocash]

When you spend money on bonsai, what you are really buying is time.
Only a small proportion of trees are worth collecting, and only a small proportion of those will make good bonsai. Turning collected material into a good bonsai may easily take 20 years.
So either way you are paying, either in money or time.

I’m on the time route because I don’t have money but if you do that its important to choose the right material at the start. It’s disheartening to realise after a decade that you’re stuck with something that will never really be any good because of poor decisions made long ago. But that’s a topic for another thread.

Time I have, money is harder to come by. I’m going for finding a diamond in the rough at the moment. I’ve collected quite few so far. Some I’m very excited about, some I know will likely be nothing special, but while I’m so new its hard to learn the difference. I’m hoping time and study will prove me well in the long run.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Woocash, I hear ya on the "nothing special" deal. I've use two rolls of 150' flagging tape in the last 4 years, flagging potential candidates. Most times, when I go back in spring, what was once a definite candidate becomes a "meh" one. Your eyes get better and you go out looking with new information and tastes in mind. For me, I've found quite a few really decent trees. As I'm looking now, the potential candidate has to be as good or preferably, better than what I have. Now THAT gets harder and harder!

 

[Woocash]

You're wrong. Common does NOT mean worthwhile.

What you will begin to realize as you start to get an "eye" for good and great trees is that the VAST majority of the trees around you are NOT worth the trouble of digging up. I'd bet I've got access to hundreds of more acres of land that you with dozens more species and millions of trees. I've looked at my fair share of bonsai candidates. Only about 1 percent of the trees on that land were worth the trouble. Most of the "borderline" trees would have had to have significant redevelopment done if they were collected.

You don't have to spend money on anything, but there is a cost in collecting trees. For the most part that cost is time and effort. With those "expensive high end trees" those two concerns are not nearly as high, or even present...

I don‘t disagree with anything you’ve said there, but that’s not really what I said, or meant at least. I have such an abundance of a few species, and a huge area for collecting sites that makes me think it’s worth concentrating and learning mostly on these trees. Most of the places I search are old hedges and bridleways or old copses and woodlands and lot of the trees are not necessarily beanpoles or useless candidates because they have previously been managed or shaped by man and left to their own devices. Like you say, the vast majority are not at all useful or easy subjects, but having so many to choose from means there are the odd couple of beauties, or at least some which catch my eye.

Common means more chance of finding worthwhile, in my mind. If I were to look for Scots pine I’d have to take what I can get. If I want hawthorn my chances are far greater.