opinion of my pinion

Vance Wood

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I will mention a few things then I will shut up unless asked to elaborate. I am not sure what you think a bonsai is and how it is obtained. That is probably the moat significant question because everything else will hinge off of that answer.

Very often what a person thinks and or believes is as critical as what a person does. Are you aware that the majority of world class, make you want to sell your children, beautiful bonsai are made from cutting down a larger tree into a smaller bonsai? Almost never is a"World Class" bonsai the product of a seedling grown from beginning to end as a bonsai within the span of 50 years.
 

jkl2

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This tree has one unique problem. The root damage.


Pinon pine are notoriously difficult to transplant successfully, largely because their roots have to travel so far to find an appreciable amount of water. This means when you dig one, you likely cut the root back severely, and damaged roots don't use water well. If this tree was further damaged after potting as I think you said, that makes it even more unlikely to survive. Keeping it indoors, gives it a third strike. So, don't hold a lot of hope for this little guy. They die slowly, they end up just as dead.

Try to find a book: "Bonsai from the Wild" by Lenz, and READ, READ, READ.

There's a lot to bonsai -- a lot to learn and a lot to enjoy. Good luck, and have fun.
 

Vance Wood

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If you look at the pictures the wood seems to be puckering and the needles appear to be drying out. I was not going to say anything because unless I can touch the tree I don't know for sure.
 

Woodland Spirit

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I will mention a few things then I will shut up unless asked to elaborate. I am not sure what you think a bonsai is and how it is obtained. That is probably the moat significant question because everything else will hinge off of that answer.

Very often what a person thinks and or believes is as critical as what a person does. Are you aware that the majority of world class, make you want to sell your children, beautiful bonsai are made from cutting down a larger tree into a smaller bonsai? Almost never is a"World Class" bonsai the product of a seedling grown from beginning to end as a bonsai within the span of 50 years.
I have seen many bonsai and have an idea of what they are. My goals are to have a nice looking little tree that looks a lot like a big tree that has been shrunk. But it's art. It can be a little different. As for this tree, if it lives it may just be a potted pine. Nothing special. Or maybe it will recover from my mistakes, past and future, and become something to post on Facebook. It's not the last tree I will try to bonsai. I don't mind if some take longer than my lifetime to "finish" I also like the faster way. I do not feel restricted to one way. I will try to find a large trunk tree after researching a bit on what it should look like when I find it before I do anything to it.
Also, if I mess up I'll just try again. It is not wasted if I learn from it.
One day I will probably find a style and technique I prefer but right now I am exploring. The end goal is at least one good bonsai about 18 inches high and looking like an ancient tree from a fairy tale, before I die. One to pass on to someone. If the rest look like a witches work then at least I will have enjoyed the ride.
What I think of as bonsai is a small tree that looks like a large tree and is or looks old. Also it is the artwork of the caretakers. And takes time. Is often passed on for generations.

Except chili pepper bonsai, they are quick thrills. Fast food. Instant meditation. Then they die.

I have much to learn before I reach my goals. That is part of the journey.

As for how it is obtained, they come from Walmart.
No, I believe they are carefully and skillfully grown. But how it's done?
I found out that I have no idea. I thought I knew. But now I see it's not just trimming a little stick in a pot until eventually it's cool looking.
I also see the point of those I thought were being rude. Although the bit someone said about the bonsai of a 5 year old is still bugging me, because it's true.
Honestly it's been a crash course. I didn't know how much I didn't know.

BTW I have more hope for the elm. All I have to do is plant it near a concrete wall or a sewer pipe or anywhere its not wanted and it will grow. Ask anyone who has had one rip up the foundation of their home. Really though, I'll stick them both in the ground and see what can be done. Meanwhile I'll look for better starts.
 

Nwaite

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Shit ya!

Your going to injoy the ride!
Just don't start doing crack to ... you only want to be doing one very addictive thing at a time or you'll go crazy!
 

sorce

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I am not sure what you think a bonsai is and how it is obtained. That is probably the moat significant question because everything else will hinge off of that answer.

If I may for Woodland....

Thinking about that question for me...
It's significance...

Kind of falls into what I told Woodland before....about getting it but STILL not getting it!

Cuz I know, for myself....even after I knew what it was, had a solid definition and understanding of bonsai.
I still wasn't collecting anything good. Or making useful moves.

Something about the aspect of TIME.
It blurrs understanding, realization.

Well....here I am about 5 years later with still nothing great to talk about...

I feel like I'm in a good transitional phase now. Physically and mentally.

Anyway....that's kind of why I'm not against sticks in pots. The passion for what is in front of you...good or bad material.....is good.
I'm not here to break anyone's passion.
It's a thin line!

Great question to question questions Vance!

Sorce
 

jkl2

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I have to say, Woodland, you certainly are full of . . . confidence. But I HAVE to ask: Have you ever been to a bonsai show/display? Have you ever seen a quality bonsai in three dimensions, rather than on a flat page or screen? Have you ever seen a qualified bonsaiest work on a tree?

On a related not, I believe we've mentioned that bonsai usually are not grown UP from see, but are cut DOWN from a larger plant. Here is an example of mine.
 

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rockm

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How long do you think this tree has been a bonsai? How old do you think it is?
Those are two separate questions with different answers.live oak.jpg

It has been in bonsai training only 25 years. It is over 200 years old, however.

This is an example of cutting down a larger older tree into bonsai size. The tree (a live oak) was originally 25 feet tall growing in a dry piece of Texas rangeland before someone dug it up, chopped the top 21 feet off of it and began the process of reducing and rejuvenating the chopped root mass in a container. The branching has been regrown from scratch completely since it was dug up. None of the branches it has now were present when it was living on the range.

This relatively brutal process is extremely common practice in creating bonsai with any potential, even the ancient trees in the Japanese Imperial collection.

If you look closely on 99 percent of any decent bonsai grown by someone who knows what they're doing, you can find where the original trunk was chopped back and regrown. Many creators are experts at hiding those marks, but they're there on the vast majority of trees --including seed grown trees.
Take a look through some better known collections to see good trees. You have to see good trees to make a good tree:
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/
http://pacificbonsaimuseum.org/
http://www.ncarboretum.org/exhibits/outdoors-2/bonsai/
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/
http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1449245
http://www.elandangardens.com/museum/museum.htm
http://bonsai.shikoku-np.co.jp/imperial/en/
 
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Woodland Spirit

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I have to say, Woodland, you certainly are full of . . . confidence. But I HAVE to ask: Have you ever been to a bonsai show/display? Have you ever seen a quality bonsai in three dimensions, rather than on a flat page or screen? Have you ever seen a qualified bonsaiest work on a tree?

On a related not, I believe we've mentioned that bonsai usually are not grown UP from see, but are cut DOWN from a larger plant. Here is an example of mine.
I have in fact. I have picked up and held some real honest true $500 to $2000 bonsai. They wouldn't let me touch the others. Yes it has been mentioned that the get cut down etc.
And your tree is fantastic! That is amazing!

No I have never seen it done. I had no idea before I came here.
 

Woodland Spirit

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How long do you think this tree has been a bonsai? How old do you think it is?
Those are two separate questions with different answers.View attachment 91028

It has been in bonsai training only 25 years. It is over 200 years old, however.

This is an example of cutting down a larger older tree into bonsai size. The tree (a live oak) was originally 25 feet tall growing in a dry piece of Texas rangeland before someone dug it up, chopped the top 21 feet off of it and began the process of reducing and rejuvenating the chopped root mass in a container. The branching has been regrown from scratch completely since it was dug up. None of the branches it has now were present when it was living on the range.

This relatively brutal process is extremely common practice in creating bonsai with any potential, even the ancient trees in the Japanese Imperial collection.

If you look closely on 99 percent of any decent bonsai grown by someone who knows what they're doing, you can find where the original trunk was chopped back and regrown. Many creators are experts at hiding those marks, but they're there on the vast majority of trees --including seed grown trees.
Take a look through some better known collections to see good trees. You have to see good trees to make a good tree:
https://www.bonsai-nbf.org/
http://pacificbonsaimuseum.org/
http://www.ncarboretum.org/exhibits/outdoors-2/bonsai/
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/
http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1449245
http://www.elandangardens.com/museum/museum.htm
http://bonsai.shikoku-np.co.jp/imperial/en/
I will check out these links.

This is more fascinating every moment.

I found a really nice tree for bonsai but I think I would have to skip the country if I took it. It's protected and one of the oldest on earth. It's on a huge rock and I don't know how I'd get it home.

One thing I wonder, is it possible to take a 4 inch trunk that is not tapered and shrink the top? Turn a cylinder into a cone? Just a curiosity really.
 

Adair M

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I have in fact. I have picked up and held some real honest true $500 to $2000 bonsai. They wouldn't let me touch the others. Yes it has been mentioned that the get cut down etc.
And your tree is fantastic! That is amazing!

No I have never seen it done. I had no idea before I came here.
Bonsai in the price range you mention have probably been carefully styled and trained. You really shouldn't pick them up and hold them. You may accidently break or bend a branch. Look with your eyes only.
 

Rid

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I will check out these links.

This is more fascinating every moment.

I found a really nice tree for bonsai but I think I would have to skip the country if I took it. It's protected and one of the oldest on earth. It's on a huge rock and I don't know how I'd get it home.

One thing I wonder, is it possible to take a 4 inch trunk that is not tapered and shrink the top? Turn a cylinder into a cone? Just a curiosity really.

Is it methuselah?
 

Vance Wood

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I believe that methuselah was cut down by the forest service so that a cross section could be sent to some University to count the annual rings. Three cheers for those who are supposed to protect out forests.
 

M. Frary

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I believe that methuselah was cut down by the forest service so that a cross section could be sent to some University to count the annual rings. Three cheers for those who are supposed to protect out forests.
No way!
They wouldnt. Would they?
I hope not.
 

Woodland Spirit

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The one I refer to is not Methuselah but is very old. It is in Zion canyon national park and not well known. I know of another south of there.
If they cut down Methuselah they are on my bad side.

I just skimmed through a mountain of information on trunk development. Apparently there are several ways to grow a good trunk. Beer is one. No, we're talking about trees, forgot. I am not sure what is best for pine. I'm guessing bend and grow?
 

Vance Wood

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They did. One of the oldest Bristle Cone Pines was cut down just to measure the growth rings. I believe it was the Methuselah tree.
 

Andrew Robson

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They did. One of the oldest Bristle Cone Pines was cut down just to measure the growth rings. I believe it was the Methuselah tree.
Nope!!! Prometheus was the tree that was cut down and killed. Methuselah is still alive, and its location is not public so people don't cut it down as well.
 
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