Overwatering question

Vance Wood

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Depending on the tree... I just use a humidity tray and keep it completely full at all times. My trees seem to love it :)
The trouble with a humidity tray is in the nature of the soil. If the soil is compacted or capable of retaining a lot of water you can rot the roots. If the soil drains really well you might slow down that circulation pointed out previously.
 

DaiDaiTwo

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This is true - I have both of mine with a layer of thin aquarium gravel on the bottom and then dirt and then another layer of aquarium gravel on the top - sorry about that!!
 

ConorDash

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Inorganic is certainly less stressful.

+ something Bobby pointed out when he visited: the small particle size seems to aid small leaves. My elms have very nice small leaves and he believed the small particular size of the inorganic DE I’m using, to be aiding that.
I find it easier to tell if it needs water or not, too. Although I’ve been using it on a variety of sized trees for 3 years now.
I’m still quite worried about my trees that are in more a 50/50 mix of organic, when to water. So far so good, it seems.
Over and under watering seems to be a relatively fast killer or presenting bad signs, so, here’s hoping I’m ok so far.

With organic and inorganic, I water THOROUGHLY, till it runs out the bottom. Everytime.
 

Vance Wood

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Inorganic is certainly less stressful.

+ something Bobby pointed out when he visited: the small particle size seems to aid small leaves. My elms have very nice small leaves and he believed the small particular size of the inorganic DE I’m using, to be aiding that.
I find it easier to tell if it needs water or not, too. Although I’ve been using it on a variety of sized trees for 3 years now.
I’m still quite worried about my trees that are in more a 50/50 mix of organic, when to water. So far so good, it seems.
Over and under watering seems to be a relatively fast killer or presenting bad signs, so, here’s hoping I’m ok so far.

With organic and inorganic, I water THOROUGHLY, till it runs out the bottom. Everytime.
Could you define what you mean by Organic and inorganic. Sometimes in bonsai we confuse our terms and mix them up as in the pinching/clipping debate.
 

ConorDash

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Could you define what you mean by Organic and inorganic. Sometimes in bonsai we confuse our terms and mix them up as in the pinching/clipping debate.

I personally define organic matter as soil, bark, anything that is made up of.. well, something organic. Tends to absorb water.
Inorganic is rock, lava, DE, some stone of some sort.. usually porous, doesn’t absorb water but may contain it in its pores.

How would you define? Whether my definition is wrong or not, I know what I mean lol.
 

eb84327

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I use a nice mix of 1:1:1 pumice akadama and lava. After moving plants inside from the summer i experienced some minor issue from overwatering, yellowing of some lower leafs on a couple scheffleras. Species plays a huge role. and again its not overwating as much as temperature difference and slower evaporation rate. I still believe though that the minor issues from over watering outweigh the risk of underwatering any day though.
 

Vance Wood

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I personally define organic matter as soil, bark, anything that is made up of.. well, something organic. Tends to absorb water.
Inorganic is rock, lava, DE, some stone of some sort.. usually porous, doesn’t absorb water but may contain it in its pores.

How would you define? Whether my definition is wrong or not, I know what I mean lol.
Plain old garden soil/dirt can be considered organic because it can be made of everything you can imagine including peat moss, pine bark mulch, leaf mold, dead branches, you name it. Usually not a good choice because you cannot control it and it breaks down too quick. The non-organic elements in garden dirt is usually clay, sand and rocks. These things are together in a way that does not promote good root growth for a bonsai. The most important thing is the structure of the mix. The structure is the physical property of the mix being really fine or really coarse or somewhere in between. The important thing is that the mix remains the same, does not break down or become soggy. There is a movement in bonsai today that I think is wrong; the use of a totally inorganic soil mi;--- a bag of rocks basically. I have found in my sixty years of growing bonsai that a bit of organics is important in the promotion of beneficial fungus and bacteria. A good soil mix does not change significantly over the period of at least three years, it remains basically the same physically today as it was three years ago. It does not start holding too much water neither does it dry out too fast.
 
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eb84327

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I think the idea and concepts behind the inorganic soil is the ability to treat it like hydroponics. Most chemical varables are more easily control.
 

Vance Wood

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I think the idea and concepts behind the inorganic soil is the ability to treat it like hydroponics. Most chemical varables are more easily control.
You base this assumption on your years of experience growing bonsai? It would seem you are in favor of test tube bonsai. There are a lot of things that have come around in my time growing bonsai that are nothing much more than fads. One of them is using the so called inorganic soil mix. Another is the universal use of Acadama in a bonsai soil to the point that many beginners believe it is not possible to grow bonsai without this expensive additive, especially those who import and sell this stuff. But in fact many experienced growers know it to be the fraud many feared it to be, breaking down and forcing users to repot more frequently than they would normally have to other wise. Likewise I distrust a totally inorganic soil mix. Though it can be done it is absolutely necessary to micro-manage every aspect of a tree's culture. One screw up and the consequences can be disastrous. Sorry; I realize my response seems snarky but I don't know any other way to put my point out there.
 

eb84327

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You base this assumption on your years of experience growing bonsai? It would seem you are in favor of test tube bonsai. There are a lot of things that have come around in my time growing bonsai that are nothing much more than fads. One of them is using the so called inorganic soil mix. Another is the universal use of Acadama in a bonsai soil to the point that many beginners believe it is not possible to grow bonsai without this expensive additive, especially those who import and sell this stuff. But in fact many experienced growers know it to be the fraud many feared it to be, breaking down and forcing users to repot more frequently than they would normally have to other wise. Likewise I distrust a totally inorganic soil mix. Though it can be done it is absolutely necessary to micro-manage every aspect of a tree's culture. One screw up and the consequences can be disastrous. Sorry; I realize my response seems snarky but I don't know any other way to put my point out there.

My bonsai skill level is begginger. I have a shit ton of experience with hydroponics. Test tube bonsai is a great way of describing how I grow and it works. I do agree with you and about akadama. It's overpriced and over used. Saying that though it does have good surface area and the correctly charged ion to for attracting fertilizer. I do not think it's a fad though. I think people that want to give their trees the best grow environment will use all available materials that best fit what that particular tree likes.
Edit:. When I make a mistake though it's dead.
 

Vance Wood

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My bonsai skill level is begginger. I have a shit ton of experience with hydroponics. Test tube bonsai is a great way of describing how I grow and it works. I do agree with you and about akadama. It's overpriced and over used. Saying that though it does have good surface area and the correctly charged ion to for attracting fertilizer. I do not think it's a fad though. I think people that want to give their trees the best grow environment will use all available materials that best fit what that particular tree likes.
Edit:. When I make a mistake though it's dead.
In the end you cannot grow a bonsai hydroponically because, mostly, you cannot find a way to provide the environments necessary to develop the kind of trees that really define classic bonsai.
 

eb84327

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In the end you cannot grow a bonsai hydroponically because, mostly, you cannot find a way to provide the environments necessary to develop the kind of trees that really define classic bonsai.
Correct. We can not give a better environment than nature. Not yet at least. Concepts are similar and some techniques work well with most deciduous and tropical trees so far. I will admit that with pines all rules and what I thought I knew goes right out the window and I don't know much about yet.
 

Vance Wood

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Correct. We can not give a better environment than nature. Not yet at least. Concepts are similar and some techniques work well with most deciduous and tropical trees so far. I will admit that with pines all rules and what I thought I knew goes right out the window and I don't know much about yet.
So in the end the critical question is; are you really interested in growing bonsai or are you interested in advancing your quest for an everything hydroponically?
 

eb84327

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I consider myself to be practical and I like to make evidence based descions. I try to leave my personal prejudices at the door in the pursuit of knowledge. Bonsai is an art form. Bonsai is not easy and requires a skill set most people do not have. Some concepts can be hard to grasp at times because it breaks rules that as a typical grower of things, I would avoid. As time progress I have learned that some things for bonsai can only be done the bonsai way. Some skills, like understanding ppm, pH, lighting, and chemical usage i learned earlier working hydroponics and very transferrable. As for everything hydro I have never really been on that train. If production qaunity is the goal than hydro is the way. But if qaulity is the goal I have to go with traditional methods.

Too I want be clear that I don't claim to believe organic is better than in-organic or vise versa.
I do think it's easier to understand and measure what chemicals or elements are present in one or the other because of the difference of decomposition. Measuring and determining my in-organic mix is very similar to measuring hydro grow medium along with the physical make up containing some of the same components.

Edit: I'm here to learn bonsai.
 

Vance Wood

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I consider myself to be practical and I like to make evidence based descions. I try to leave my personal prejudices at the door in the pursuit of knowledge. Bonsai is an art form. Bonsai is not easy and requires a skill set most people do not have. Some concepts can be hard to grasp at times because it breaks rules that as a typical grower of things, I would avoid. As time progress I have learned that some things for bonsai can only be done the bonsai way. Some skills, like understanding ppm, pH, lighting, and chemical usage i learned earlier working hydroponics and very transferrable. As for everything hydro I have never really been on that train. If production qaunity is the goal than hydro is the way. But if qaulity is the goal I have to go with traditional methods.

Too I want be clear that I don't claim to believe organic is better than in-organic or vise versa.
I do think it's easier to understand and measure what chemicals or elements are present in one or the other because of the difference of decomposition. Measuring and determining my in-organic mix is very similar to measuring hydro grow medium along with the physical make up containing some of the same components.

Edit: I'm here to learn bonsai.
An interesting conundrum here is the fact that many of the growers that are so set in the use of inorganic soil mixes are also in favor of organic fertilizers. It is as though there is an unwritten law that says the most difficult methods for growing bonsai are the only methods worthy of considering.
 

eb84327

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Fertilizer is a whole other beast. First people in line to get paid if ya go broke farming. Not the banks, not the equipment dealer but the fertilizer salesman.
I honestly think there is more shit and missinformation to wade through with fertilizer than any other subject.

I try to keep my brain in check by telling myself that I should have a fertilizer preference based off functionality of in-organic and organic fertilizer as opposed to preference based off of type or brand. For example if organic works better for "x growth" than in-organic does I choose organic, and vise versa if inorganic works better for "y growth" or dry vs liquid and so on. Seems there is a lot of snake oil out there to be aware of also.
 
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