Path to JBP bonsai in 10 years

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Look for taper! And possibilities. I made the mistake to buy some straight sticks, with no branches. That limits the future possibilities a lot.
I was also lucky sometimes, buying some trees of the level as the one above (but 2 years younger) for less than 10 dollars. It can be done cheap, I'm convinced of that. Maybe out of my own necessity, maybe because it's true.

 

[Adair M]

Folks, colanders are overrated. They are not the magic everyone seems to think they are. They are useful for growing shohin pines, and thats about it.

In Japan, 99% of the good pines are field grown.

George Muranaka still has a few JBP for sale on eBay. I just checked. They’re about $165. They were field grown. And he’s cut them back, and now they’re ready to begin training. And from this point, they will take 5 to 10 years to become show ready. He’s the seller who lives on Nipono, CA.

I have long recommended that people new to JBP start with George’s trees. They are reasonably priced for what they are, and they’ve been grown for bonsai, so there’s usually no major faults.

Starting from seed is boring for the first 5 years. Using landscape nursery stock involves fighting bad grafts, inverse taper, long internodes, poor nebari, etc.

Do yourself a favor, spend a little more, and have something you can start learning with TODAY, not in 5 years!

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks. That gives me an idea of what to expect.
So here are the checks.
1) Good size trunk
2) Good movement in the trunk.
3) Low branches
4) Good roots
All above things with respect to amount of money spent.
Assume that tree is healthy, what else am I looking for?

Assuming the tree is healthy. May i suggest you consider these details.
1. Check nebari for relatively even distribution and form. Is there some flare forming. If that checks proceed.
2. Check trunk for size, movement and taper, Is the movement interesting? if that checks proceed.
3. Check for branch placement , or are there options lower down in the first foot. Interior growth close in or newly formed on the trunk. If that checks proceed.
4. Re check for overall health !
5. Remember if this is a prebonsai then the odds are only the lower portion will be used to develop the tree, additional branching and foliage. If you are lucky you may get a lower primary branch and the next one up with an apical leader to start.
Most important are the things that are difficult or impossible to correct. Bad roots, poor or no movement in the trunk and lack of branches, straight taperless sections too thick to wire proper movement!.
PS: you will know the grower cares and took the time if the above are present and the tree also shows sign of wiring for movement to avoid straight sections. The best time for this is usually before or when the section is thicker than 1/4 inch. Pre Bonsai grown quickly for the market often display poor movement in the trunk, straight sections on the branches and lack of options lower down on the trunk. The reason for this is that to avoid these problems require extra care, extra skill and work at the right time by the grower. These techniques also slow the overall growth and lengthen the time to market.
In summary i consider the first three concerns must be met and seen to be above average before the purchase should be considered. The best chance to get the most potential for $100 will be with a a younger tree that has had the right care for the first six or seven years. The trunk might be smaller ( 2-3 inch) but the nebari, trunk movement and lower branch options are more important. They grow quickly!

 

[Cajunrider]

Folks, colanders are overrated. They are not the magic everyone seems to think they are. They are useful for growing shohin pines, and thats about it.

In Japan, 99% of the good pines are field grown.

George Muranaka still has a few JBP for sale on eBay. I just checked. They’re about $165. They were field grown. And he’s cut them back, and now they’re ready to begin training. And from this point, they will take 5 to 10 years to become show ready. He’s the seller who lives on Nipono, CA.

I have long recommended that people new to JBP start with George’s trees. They are reasonably priced for what they are, and they’ve been grown for bonsai, so there’s usually no major faults.

Starting from seed is boring for the first 5 years. Using landscape nursery stock involves fighting bad grafts, inverse taper, long internodes, poor nebari, etc.

Do yourself a favor, spend a little more, and have something you can start learning with TODAY, not in 5 years!

I definitely will check his trees out then. Thank you.

 

[JoeR]

InternationalBonsai.com puts out a catalogue every year, and it just so happens that this year Mr. Valavanis has JBP shohin pre bonsai for sale through the catalogue. These will be perfect for you, it sounds like, and I believe they are priced at $110 shipping included. They don’t ship out until January however.

 

[Potawatomi13]

BNutters please come to my help

Best help: DON'T move north!

 

[Potawatomi13]

"Adair M said:

Folks, colanders are overrated. They are not the magic everyone seems to think they are. They are useful for growing shohin pines, and thats about it.

In Japan, 99% of the good pines are field grown.

George Muranaka still has a few JBP for sale on eBay. I just checked. They’re about $165. They were field grown. And he’s cut them back, and now they’re ready to begin training. And from this point, they will take 5 to 10 years to become show ready. He’s the seller who lives on Nipono, CA.

I have long recommended that people new to JBP start with George’s trees. They are reasonably priced for what they are, and they’ve been grown for bonsai, so there’s usually no major faults.

Starting from seed is boring for the first 5 years. Using landscape nursery stock involves fighting bad grafts, inverse taper, long internodes, poor nebari, etc."

Absolute truth. Especially first 3 lines!

 

[Cajunrider]

Best help: DON'T move north!

But but .... my grand babies are going to be there. That trumps everything including bonsai.

 

[Cajunrider]

"Adair M said:

Folks, colanders are overrated. They are not the magic everyone seems to think they are. They are useful for growing shohin pines, and thats about it.

In Japan, 99% of the good pines are field grown.

George Muranaka still has a few JBP for sale on eBay. I just checked. They’re about $165. They were field grown. And he’s cut them back, and now they’re ready to begin training. And from this point, they will take 5 to 10 years to become show ready. He’s the seller who lives on Nipono, CA.

I have long recommended that people new to JBP start with George’s trees. They are reasonably priced for what they are, and they’ve been grown for bonsai, so there’s usually no major faults.

Starting from seed is boring for the first 5 years. Using landscape nursery stock involves fighting bad grafts, inverse taper, long internodes, poor nebari, etc."

Absolute truth. Especially first 3 lines!

I'm taking all this in. Well I think some time in 2019 I will get a good pre-bonsai but first I've gotta learn to keep JBP alive.

 

[Cajunrider]

InternationalBonsai.com puts out a catalogue every year, and it just so happens that this year Mr. Valavanis has JBP shohin pre bonsai for sale through the catalogue. These will be perfect for you, it sounds like, and I believe they are priced at $110 shipping included. They don’t ship out until January however.

Yes!!!
I went to internationalbonsai.com and cannot find the 2019 catalog!

 

[JoeR]

Yes!!!
I went to internationalbonsai.com and cannot find the 2019 catalog!

I think he usually updates it online after the holidays, he’s a very busy man. I only know that they’re offering JBP because I purchased one from them at the Winter Silhouette show this past weekend and they gave me their printed seedling catalogue. Definitely snatch one up when it’s available though!

 

[coh]

I think Bill's catalog usually shows up sometime in December. I'm on his mailing list so if I remember, when it comes out I'll let you know.

 

[Coppersdad]

Cajunrider, I first want to give a great deal of respect to all the experienced artists who have given you advice on this subject. I'm new to the hobby, this being my third winter season. I read a bunch and watched a ton of videos. My first attempts were terrible. I've killed maybe six trees in this short time. Everything changed when I joined a local club and began attending their meetings, shows and auctions. You can't help but learn by listening, seeing the examples and by a sort of osmosis.

I hope you're in an area where you can join a club. Many have meetings in the evenings and events on weekends that make them available to a person still working. At my club, in a few short months I met a very experienced and helpful hobbyist who lives TWO BLOCKS from my house.

In time, I worked up the nerve to attend the bring your own tree workshops offered by visiting artists. I attended only as an observer. That method costs a lot less and allowed me to watch closeup without having to speak. I could see the mistakes and triumphs of those in the class. I learned a lot and my confidence has grown. Having a club and a community is the very best way for a beginner to learn. Your neighbors in our bonsai hobby are, for the most part, helpful, sensitive and non-judgmental.

Believe me, time is always short in this hobby. I'm almost 73. Been retired for many years. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I'd started bonsai when I was 20. You have a lot more time that I do. Join a club and start learning now.
Good luck.

 

[Anthony]

Hmm, I would suggest you ask for the Bonsai Today no.12 on growing
J,B.pine from seed.
Join the J.B.pine 6 year situation.
Merry Christmas.
Anthony

 

[Cajunrider]

Hmm, I would suggest you ask for the Bonsai Today no.12 on growing
J,B.pine from seed.
Join the J.B.pine 6 year situation.
Merry Christmas.
Anthony

I thought it I was too late to join. I've been following that though.

 

[bonhe]

I also am going to attempt a whole bunch of seeds, knowing that they won't be near where I want at the 10 year mark. However, they can be some things I give away to younguns that like bonsai.

I am glad to know that you plan to do the seedlings. You should not worry about its time frame with your age. My teacher still did seedlings at age 85 and now he is still interested doing cutting at age 92. Nothing wrong with doing seedlings, especially at your age. I have been in this hobby for about 11 years and have been growing a lot of Korean black pine, Japanese black pine from the seeds. I am always excited to watch my "kids" (yes, I consider them as my kids with the same treatment, probably less ) every time I step into the garden. In training the seedlings from young age, it gives me a lot of experience which no book or teacher can give it to me, Why? Because no one is growing trees in my garden except me. Besides, when you start thinking of seedlings, you should understand that the final goal for that tree may not be the same in reality. During the training process, I sometimes have to follow the tree's wish. Every year, in pruning season, when I pull that particular tree out for training, I always find some new idea about what the next step should be. This process has been giving so much fun to work with black pine seedlings. It continues triggering my brain, my thinking process. I believe it is a must for keeping the people from dementia, Alzheimer's disease. As you know, our US elderly population is bigger and bigger. With that in mind, you would see more people with dementia. So, growing the seedling is one of ways to fight back the dementia. I know a lot of old Japanese people doing bonsai lived long without any memory loss! My teacher is still able to drive on the freeway without problem, still remember a lot of things to which I wish I could do the same when I am up to his age.
Besides that fact, with $100, I can buy a lot of black pine seeds with some material to prepare for seedlings. In 10 years, you will have a lot of pines to take care. It will keep you busy all days which is needed for retired people. I know quite a few people don't want or scare of retirement. I asked them why. They said they did not know what to do if they retired!!! If you want to buy more development prebonsai, you may find only one and it may not be easy to be trained!! With one finished tree, it is not enough to occupy your time when you retire!
I agree with others' suggestion, when you have more experience with black pine through seedlings, then you can easily buy one mature black pine later on.

Some people on this forum have very nice black pine seedlings after 10 years grow.
I like to show you two of my 10 years old Korean black pines. It probably needs 5 more years to reach final goal.


Two of 6 yo Japanese black pine seedlings


I hope you will have a good decision regarding to this matter. Good luck to you.
Thụ Thoại

p/s: hand on experience is a must for the beginner. No other ways around.

 

[Adair M]

I am glad to know that you plan to do the seedlings. You should not worry about its time frame with your age. My teacher still did seedlings at age 85 and now he is still interested doing cutting at age 92. Nothing wrong with doing seedlings, especially at your age. I have been in this hobby for about 11 years and have been growing a lot of Korean black pine, Japanese black pine from the seeds. I am always excited to watch my "kids" (yes, I consider them as my kids with the same treatment, probably less ) every time I step into the garden. In training the seedlings from young age, it gives me a lot of experience which no book or teacher can give it to me, Why? Because no one is growing trees in my garden except me. Besides, when you start thinking of seedlings, you should understand that the final goal for that tree may not be the same in reality. During the training process, I sometimes have to follow the tree's wish. Every year, in pruning season, when I pull that particular tree out for training, I always find some new idea about what the next step should be. This process has been giving so much fun to work with black pine seedlings. It continues triggering my brain, my thinking process. I believe it is a must for keeping the people from dementia, Alzheimer's disease. As you know, our US elderly population is bigger and bigger. With that in mind, you would see more people with dementia. So, growing the seedling is one of ways to fight back the dementia. I know a lot of old Japanese people doing bonsai lived long without any memory loss! My teacher is still able to drive on the freeway without problem, still remember a lot of things to which I wish I could do the same when I am up to his age.
Besides that fact, with $100, I can buy a lot of black pine seeds with some material to prepare for seedlings. In 10 years, you will have a lot of pines to take care. It will keep you busy all days which is needed for retired people. I know quite a few people don't want or scare of retirement. I asked them why. They said they did not know what to do if they retired!!! If you want to buy more development prebonsai, you may find only one and it may not be easy to be trained!! With one finished tree, it is not enough to occupy your time when you retire!
I agree with others' suggestion, when you have more experience with black pine through seedlings, then you can easily buy one mature black pine later on.

Some people on this forum have very nice black pine seedlings after 10 years grow.
I like to show you two of my 10 years old Korean black pines. It probably needs 5 more years to reach final goal.
View attachment 221184 View attachment 221185

Two of 6 yo Japanese black pine seedlings
View attachment 221187 View attachment 221188

I hope you will have a good decision regarding to this matter. Good luck to you.
Thụ Thoại

p/s: hand on experience is a must for the beginner. No other ways around.

Well...

Let me just say that there are many ways to enjoy the bonsai hobby. There’s no one “right” way.

The problem with starting with seeds is if you make a beginner mistake early on, you’re stuck with it! Your trees, bonhe, are pretty much all literati. Long thin trunks with movement, no taper and no low branches. If that’s what you want, that’s great! But what if you wanted shohin? What if you want a tree with taper? What if you want a tree with low branches? Your trees aren’t suitable for those styles.

There’s no shame in buying decent starter material. It still takes a while to make a good structure, develop ramification, even if you start with a good trunk!

 

[James W.]

I thought it I was too late to join. I've been following that though.

Never too late. I plan to start some more seeds this spring.

 

[James W.]

Would this eBay JBP be an OK start? 2 trees for $40

 

[bonhe]

Adair M, post: 613777, member: 13405"]Well...

Let me just say that there are many ways to enjoy the bonsai hobby. There’s no one “right” way.
You are absolutely correct!

The problem with starting with seeds is if you make a beginner mistake early on, you’re stuck with it!
Might be.

Your trees, bonhe, are pretty much all literati. Long thin trunks with movement, no taper and no low branches. If that’s what you want, that’s great! But what if you wanted shohin? What if you want a tree with taper? What if you want a tree with low branches? Your trees aren’t suitable for those styles.

Haha, because you did not see all my trees, I don't think it is good judgment from your side!
However, I love literati and natural style because they help me obtain more creative ideas and reward mentally and physically!
I have quite a few of small pines. Here is a few 10 yo KBP in training.




There’s no shame in buying decent starter material. It still takes a while to make a good structure, develop ramification, even if you start with a good trunk!
I agree. But one should still to start seedlings to learn from them. You don't want to burn your money on the decent material when you have no or little experience.
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