Pinching strong apical shoots on a developing JM

sorce

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Implicitly suggest to work on ramification (refinement)

It only seems implicit because it wasn't a suggestion to work on ramification.

I feel what Forsoothe is discussing is quite similar to that which Bill V has showed us works magic after 40 years.

Of course, I'm not saying all us youngings have the patience to even understand 40 years of work, but I do respect the wisdom of someone who's seen almost twice as many new moons as I, grows excellently healthy plants, and isn't even speaking of design at all, besides not wanting ugly stubs, which I hope we all agree on!

Sorce
 

Adair M

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In the, "Here we go again" mode, I may not have trees of @MACH5 or @Adair M form, but I don't have their money and the people that I advise here don't, either. Those kinds of people can buy what they want, and God bless them. I have posted so many photos it's embarrassing, but here's what I think is closer to what the OP wants...
View attachment 362799
Assembled in ~2004 from seedlings in my yard. My seedlings, my training, my soil, not wired-in, on a 20" sq. occasional table I shortened to 5 1/2" high, on a mat cut from a reed /widow shade. My way.
A formless made of green foliage. No balance. Why is the foliage on the upper right so tall and wide? The trunk over there are the same caliper as the ones on the left. There’s no negative space. All the trunks are the same caliper. Are you trying to depict a tree farm? They all seem to be about the same distance apart. I see long branches with long internodes. That happened because the pot is too deep.

How do you know that’s what he wants?

You may assembled this in 2004, but the forest doesn’t appear to have developed any character. There’s no resemblance of age or maturity.

Some people who have been doing bonsai a long time just stagnate. Keep doing the same thing year after year. Never improve.

Other people are always seeking to learn the new techniques. They challenge themselves to learn to wire, how to properly repot, how to pair trees to pots, how to use the proper soil for the situation. Their trees advance and improve over the years. Their “eye” for what makes a great bonsai get educated.

Forsoothe! I’ll let you decide for yourself which category you are.
 

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It only seems implicit because it wasn't a suggestion to work on ramification.

I think you conserve resources by pinching. Those resources will produce wood closer to the interior by pinching.
My bad. I thought pinching (JM) makes ramification. Did know know doing so cause trunk to thicken. Learn something new every day.
 

LanceMac10

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Pinching a JM? Stop it from growing for the remainder of the season. You'll get a shorter nodal length at that spot next year.

Conserve resources? Well, the tree has gone thru lots of resources to put out the new growth. Then you just took off all the solar panels for the year....putting your material two steps behind. When does it get a chance to build vigor AND reserves?
 

ajm55555

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Pinching a JM? Stop it from growing for the remainder of the season. You'll get a shorter nodal length at that spot next year.

Conserve resources? Well, the tree has gone thru lots of resources to put out the new growth. Then you just took off all the solar panels for the year....putting your material two steps behind. When does it get a chance to build vigor AND reserves?
Hi @LanceMac10! Please read my original post, just the first one and let me know (I don't like pinching too)
 

sorce

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My bad. I thought pinching (JM) makes ramification. Did know know doing so cause trunk to thicken. Learn something new every day

He means conserve resources, specifically as opposed to lopping branches. Which is true.

No one is trying to make the trunk thicker, but by conserving resources in any manner, you will build more trunk, regardless of how fast or where.

Sorce
 

Adair M

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He means conserve resources, specifically as opposed to lopping branches. Which is true.

No one is trying to make the trunk thicker, but by conserving resources in any manner, you will build more trunk, regardless of how fast or where.

Sorce
Not exactly. Trees put on wood to support themselves. If there’s no apical growth, the trees don’t have any reason to fatten the trunk.

You want a fatter trunk? Let a shoot from the apex grow unimpaired. There’s a complex system of hormones that all work together that directs the tree to produce (or not produce) trunk mass. But, the key factor is strong apical growth. That strong growth produces the hormone auxin. Auxin has a lot of effects on the tree. And the flow of auxin (or lack thereof) is a signal to build wood (or not). Pinching the strong growth on the apex removes the source, the auxin factory. No auxin (or reduced levels of auxin) tells the tree it’s NOT growing taller. Therefore, no need to make a stronger trunk to support itself.

On the other hand, if you do want a thicker trunk, let the apex grow! There will be a strong auxin source, and strong auxin flow. The tree will build more pathways to move sugars down, and water up. Those pathways are the phloem and xylem that eventually become “wood”. Here’s a picture of the process at Telperion Farms:

13FEB271-33CD-49DD-B816-EB16467DA733.jpeg

Notice, they are letting a sacrifice branch grow straight up tall. But keeping small short branches down low. Those low branches aren’t making the trunk fat, it’s the tall sacrifice.

Have you ever heard that once you put a tree into a bonsai pot the trunk stops getting fatter? It’s mostly true. It will get a bit fatter each year, but not nearly as much as if grown in the ground or even a larger container. Bonsai pots restrict the growth of the roots. And we tend to trim and style the trees which removes the auxin.

Here is a picture of one of my forests that I wanted to fatten the trunk on one of the trees:

13A79C37-EA80-48E9-8128-F1796D08F814.jpeg

I let a shoot grow on a branch up in the apex unchecked. I pinched all the others. Where I pinched, I got a bunch of little secondary branches. Increased the ramification. The sacrifice branch, if you notice, is rather sparse. I didn’t remove any leaves or anything, it just grew long. Put on wood. Compare the size of the wood on it to all the other branches you can see. By pinching, those branches stayed thin. Unpinched, it put on wood.

Leaves DO NOT produce wood! AUXIN or the flow of auxin, is what puts wood on trees. That sacrifice branch has few leaves. But it has lots of wood. The branches below have lots of leaves, but little wood!

I have seen lots and lots of posts that make the claim that having lots of foliage is how to make the branch or trunk thicker. Sorry, it’s just not so. Having lots of GROWTH is what makes branches and trunks thicker.
 

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He means conserve resources, specifically as opposed to lopping branches. Which is true.

No one is trying to make the trunk thicker, but by conserving resources in any manner, you will build more trunk, regardless of how fast or where.

Sorce
What did he mean by "producing more wood closer to the interior"? Branch get thinker closer to the trunk?
 

LanceMac10

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Hi @LanceMac10! Please read my original post, just the first one and let me know (I don't like pinching too)


Pinching a JM refers to plucking out the center bud after the first leaf set has emerged, your way past that here.

If your just looking for some thoughts on what to do in regards to these lanky, apical shoots, I'd wait until the end of May and just cut the apex as far back as you dare. Probably get some weak growth out of the apex. I don't think cutting back the apex at this point will make those weaker shoots any stronger. Your letting the tree dictate terms, you need to be pretty ruthless on the apical branches if you want a lithe, slight trunk. The apex is un-impeded and needs to be reduced to a single shoot, your letting the tree "think" it can keep expanding the crown to grow taller.
 

sorce

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Have you ever heard that once you put a tree into a bonsai pot the trunk stops getting fatter? It’s mostly true. It will get a bit fatter each year,
 

Adair M

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Sorce, What’s your point? Trees grow by producing new cells just under the bark. They can produce a lot of new cells, or just a few. My avatar tree hasn’t gotten any thicker in the 10 years I’ve owned it. I haven’t tried to measure it, I’m sure it actually HAS thickened some, but not by a noticeable amount. I’ve decandle it almost every year I’ve owned it, so the “growth” is mostly confined to replacing the needles every year.
 

leatherback

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I used the wrong verb. Well, I already cut the tip of a few strong shoots. I'll stop here now and let it grow.
Nothing wrong with trimming the top if you want the lower branches to get stronger. Buut.. question remains, where do you see this go, so what is the development plan!
 

sorce

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What’s your point?

You blow hoopla to seem important and I won't sign my name to the uneducated (which just means you haven't read, again) stuff you type.

Not exactly?

Exactly! Nothing in this is.

Want a Fatter Trunk?

No, no where does the OP speak of wanting a fatter trunk.

Therefore, what I quoted, which you meant as an argument, is actually in perfect agreement with the OP's wishes.

Ha has stated he can sort information in an above average sense.

No need for arguments is all.

Sorce
 

Adair M

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I want to go to the multi trunk version of the forest in post #25 :cool:
That forest in post #25 is getting too tall and lanky. The internodes are getting too long. It needs a good cut back!
 

Adair M

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You blow hoopla to seem important and I won't sign my name to the uneducated (which just means you haven't read, again) stuff you type.

Not exactly?

Exactly! Nothing in this is.

Want a Fatter Trunk?

No, no where does the OP speak of wanting a fatter trunk.

Therefore, what I quoted, which you meant as an argument, is actually in perfect agreement with the OP's wishes.

Ha has stated he can sort information in an above average sense.

No need for arguments is all.

Sorce
Sorce, I don’t “blow hoopla”. Look into the mirror to see some one who does that.

I illustrated my point with photographic evidence. I try to use my own trees when illustrating points so that everyone knows that not only do I “talk the talk”, I actually “walk the walk”.

I posted what I did in response to your comment that “by conserving resources by any manner, you will build more trunk”. That’s a total fabrication! You have no evidence to back up that statement. And it’s just not how trees work. If I see blatant falsehoods, I’m going to refute them.
 

Forsoothe!

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Pinching a JM? Stop it from growing for the remainder of the season. You'll get a shorter nodal length at that spot next year.

Conserve resources? Well, the tree has gone thru lots of resources to put out the new growth. Then you just took off all the solar panels for the year....putting your material two steps behind. When does it get a chance to build vigor AND reserves?
You're not paying attention, again. The cuts are made on the few that are extending too long before they leaf out. The energy that would have gone into what is cut off is re-directed to the remaining buds, secondary buds become primary, tertiary become secondary and very little energy is sacrificed. It slows down the leafing out process and helps make the leaves more uniform in size and slightly smaller instead of having large terminal leaves. Please, someone explain where the energy that would have gone into inflating the leaves and growing the twigs that are cut off goes if not to the remaining secondary and tertiary buds. Does it leak out into the atmosphere? Does it out spill onto the ground? Does it go up someone's nose and make them dream up magic answers to specific quaestions? If you cut off less, you leave more. How is this hard to comprehend?
 

leatherback

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Please, someone explain where the energy that would have gone into inflating the leaves and growing the twigs that are cut off goes if not to the remaining secondary and tertiary buds. Does it leak out into the atmosphere?
The energy is stored in/around the bud. The moment you cut it off, it is lost. The leaf is pretty much ready in the bud. Once they leaf out, and the leaf is folded to the sun it starts producing energy for the plant. Only after a few weeks will the leaf have produced enough energy to be a net positive influence. Which is why normally you would let branches extend for weeks before cutting back to trigger backbudding.
 
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