Pinus Sylvestries

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
This tree was acquired from the sale pile at the local nursery. It was in the sale pile because it is obvious that during it's early years once side was shaded and died back. The compactness of the tree allow little light to the interior and albeit not suitable for the landscape, suitable for our passion.

Not much was carried out on this tree. The pot was lifted to inspect the roots (with eyes only). The root ball is nice and healthy and mychorizea is well established. All dead branches where removed, stubs where left where jins may be in the future. All dead branching was was removed from the interior. All upward and downward growing branches were also removed at this time. Back budding is proliferous throughout the tree, where foliage has died off due to insufficient light gaining access to the tree interior. Now the tree is nice and open therefore these new shoots should develop nicely in the years to come.

The whorls are fat (something I did not care for) but that is to be expected from landscape grown trees, or even yamadori. How we deal with them in the future is more important. The tree will be left to recover and will be placed in a grow box next spring.

I saw a bunjin in this tree and welcome any other suggestions on direction to go with this.

The tree developed a twin trunk (branch) half way up the tree the trunkline chosen is the one on the left. The right may be jined at a later date, or totally removed and the area carved out to reduce the reverse taper happening there.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF0002r.jpg
    DSCF0002r.jpg
    56.9 KB · Views: 131
  • DSCF0004r.jpg
    DSCF0004r.jpg
    56.2 KB · Views: 104
  • DSCF0008r.jpg
    DSCF0008r.jpg
    57.1 KB · Views: 89
  • DSCF0016r.jpg
    DSCF0016r.jpg
    64.1 KB · Views: 98

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
Some thing that wasn't captured in the photos was the trunk movement. I took shots about every 10 degrees of rotation and although visible on the bench, the movement is flattened in 2 D. Those pictures that were uselsss were discarded.

The following picture shows the bend at the juncture that can be accentuated in future design considerations. The tree is remarkably flexible. Trunk base of 3 inches with a height from soil at 34 inches. This tree does not have a 6:1 ratio nor do I believe I wish to apply it here. It has close to a 12:1 ration which makes it suitable for a bunjin (maybe wrong word, but I don't see a literati there neither).

The second pic shows a better appreciation of the trunk line albeit difficult from photos.

The third pic shows the movement quite nicely and once the foliage has compacted and chaced back to the trunk should make an interesting bunjin.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF0018r.jpg
    DSCF0018r.jpg
    61.9 KB · Views: 52
  • DSCF0023r.jpg
    DSCF0023r.jpg
    54.8 KB · Views: 47
  • DSCF0026r.jpg
    DSCF0026r.jpg
    56.4 KB · Views: 47
  • DSCF0027r.jpg
    DSCF0027r.jpg
    57.1 KB · Views: 45

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
As stated this is a long term project 5-10 years. It will be left to recuperate and grow unhindered for the next couple of years with the exception of energy re-distribution during the growths cycles. All future design consideration, comments and visions are welcomed, along with virts for those capable of expressing their views in that fashion.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF0028r.jpg
    DSCF0028r.jpg
    56.4 KB · Views: 52

cquinn

Shohin
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
It's probably going to be at it's best if you cut back to one of those low branches after your happy with the trunk thickness and train it as a new trunk extension. Right now there just isn't enough taper. What's the nebari look like? That's very important, because you're not likely to change that. You might actually want to start there when you put it in the ground or growing pot next spring. Letting it just grow wild will not do anything for the nebari. It has to be trained as well or no matter what the tree looks like up top it'll never be great. I had an Hinoki in a showing several months back and most of the comments came about how cool the nebari was. The reason my tree stood out was because none of the other folks paid as much attention to the tree's roots. As much training if not more have to go into root training for a nice flat/concave root ball.
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,612
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Hi Rick. Great material - lucky you! You could have a lot of fun with this one. All kinds of possibilities await the inventive imagination here.

Whether or not you can induce any back budding way back onto old wood will make a big difference in your possibilities, but even if not, there are many trees lurking in there. I don't know if you've worked with two-needle pines before or not, but I'm assuming you are at least familiar with the routine approaches and timing of fertilizing, hard pruning, energy management, etc. Wiring interesting contortions and bends into all young branches - even the ones you may later jin will also add permanent value. Die grinder work later will also add value and correct flaws. cquinn's thoughts about the nebari are also well taken. But you know all those things, I assume.

Here's one fantasy of where I might take this. It may be a little too late where you live, but I'd start off fertilizing like hell all the rest of this season, then hard prune the major chops and below the distal whorls on most remaining branches this winter: Although parts of the tree have weakened due to shade, the tree overall looks quite robust, so I think I'd get started. Then let it recover a season before transplanting into a training pot late next winter.

Have fun with this bad boy!
 

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,612
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Hi Rick. Great material - lucky you! You could have a lot of fun with this one. All kinds of possibilities await the inventive imagination here.

Whether or not you can induce any back budding way back onto old wood will make a big difference in your possibilities, but even if not, there are many trees lurking in there. I don't know if you've worked with two-needle pines before or not, but I'm assuming you are at least familiar with the routine approaches and timing of fertilizing, hard pruning, energy management, etc. Wiring interesting contortions and bends into all young branches - even the ones you may later jin will also add permanent value. Die grinder work later will also add value and correct flaws. cquinn's thoughts about the nebari are also well taken. But you know all those things, I assume.

Here's one fantasy of where I might take this. It may be a little too late where you live, but I'd start off fertilizing like hell all the rest of this season, then hard prune the major chops and below the distal whorls on most remaining branches this winter: Although parts of the tree have weakened due to shade, the tree overall looks quite robust, so I think I'd get started. Then let it recover a season before transplanting into a training pot late next winter.

My virts allow you three areas of foliage, all currently on the right side. You could have a lot of fun with that. I personally wouldn't worry much about the lack of taper, but then I don't worry too much about a lot of the things I'm supposed to. :)

Have fun with this bad boy!
 

Attachments

  • RickVirt-1.jpg
    RickVirt-1.jpg
    31.3 KB · Views: 59
  • RickVirt-2.jpg
    RickVirt-2.jpg
    31.8 KB · Views: 73

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
It's probably going to be at it's best if you cut back to one of those low branches after your happy with the trunk thickness and train it as a new trunk extension. Right now there just isn't enough taper. What's the nebari look like? That's very important, because you're not likely to change that. You might actually want to start there when you put it in the ground or growing pot next spring. Letting it just grow wild will not do anything for the nebari. It has to be trained as well or no matter what the tree looks like up top it'll never be great. I had an Hinoki in a showing several months back and most of the comments came about how cool the nebari was. The reason my tree stood out was because none of the other folks paid as much attention to the tree's roots. As much training if not more have to go into root training for a nice flat/concave root ball.

Thanks for you feedback, but has stated the photos do not do this tree credit. To cut it down to its lower branches is not an option , nor will this be carried out. In all honesty that would be a TOTAL waste of material. I am not trying to be conceited here but there is a tree there and one you have failed to see. I have several trees that are within the 6:1 ratio, this was chosen because it is out of the norm but within if you can catch my drift. I hold no dreams of this being as "world class" bonsai and hence I am not aiming for that. Is there any thing else you see in this tree? Because you will indeed be surprise of what this tree will look like in 5 years from now.
 

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
Hi Rick. Great material - lucky you! You could have a lot of fun with this one. All kinds of possibilities await the inventive imagination here.

Whether or not you can induce any back budding way back onto old wood will make a big difference in your possibilities

it is happening as we speak. That is why the tree was denuded as much as it is (at this time of year) I want to get light into the interior. The tree is peppered with new shoots, and whilst perhaps not a favourable time, energy redistribution was carried out to the branches that remain. OOW I weant the tree to focus its energy on what remains. It is still within season for pines in NS, therefore I had to grab the bull by the horns.

there are many trees lurking in there.

yes there is and that's why it is adorning my bench. I have three visions for this tree, but wish to seek differing opinions and guidance

I don't know if you've worked with two-needle pines before or not, but I'm assuming you are at least familiar with the routine approaches and timing of fertilizing, hard pruning, energy management, etc.

little hands on (1-2 years) but yes versed in the process and I am continuously learning from my subjects and directed by my climate. Feeding as you know is not a problem for me as I have developed a quite successful feeding regimen. It has been further enhanced with humic acid this season, and yeah what a difference.

[quoteWiring interesting contortions and bends into all young branches - even the ones you may later jin will also add permanent value. Die grinder work later will also add value and correct flaws.[/quote]

... yup and will becarried out as the tree dictates. I don't foresee styling this tree until perhaps 2012/13

cquinn's thoughts about the nebari are also well taken. But you know all those things, I assume.

... yes Will this has been addressed already somewhat. But will be fully addressed next spring. You know me it is sink or swim. But we are in the middle of a heat wave here with hurricane Bill due to hit on Monday, so the tree deserves a break. Raised issues will be addressed come spring then as explained the tree will enjoy unrestricted growth (outside of judicious maintenance) for the next 3-5 years.

Here's one fantasy of where I might take this. It may be a little too late where you live, but I'd start off fertilizing like hell all the rest of this season, then hard prune the major chops and below the distal whorls on most remaining branches this winter: Although parts of the tree have weakened due to shade, the tree overall looks quite robust, so I think I'd get started. Then let it recover a season before transplanting into a training pot late next winter.

Have fun with this bad boy!

Thanks Will that is exactly my plan, although I was goign to wait for the radical pruning in spring. What is the timing on this one. By the time I am dome (my regimen) this thing will be so full of pee and vinegar that it is going to shoot out the gate come spring. Please define during the winter?
 

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
Hi Rick. Great material - lucky you! You could have a lot of fun with this one. All kinds of possibilities await the inventive imagination here.

Whether or not you can induce any back budding way back onto old wood will make a big difference in your possibilities, but even if not, there are many trees lurking in there. I don't know if you've worked with two-needle pines before or not, but I'm assuming you are at least familiar with the routine approaches and timing of fertilizing, hard pruning, energy management, etc. Wiring interesting contortions and bends into all young branches - even the ones you may later jin will also add permanent value. Die grinder work later will also add value and correct flaws. cquinn's thoughts about the nebari are also well taken. But you know all those things, I assume.

Here's one fantasy of where I might take this. It may be a little too late where you live, but I'd start off fertilizing like hell all the rest of this season, then hard prune the major chops and below the distal whorls on most remaining branches this winter: Although parts of the tree have weakened due to shade, the tree overall looks quite robust, so I think I'd get started. Then let it recover a season before transplanting into a training pot late next winter.

My virts allow you three areas of foliage, all currently on the right side. You could have a lot of fun with that. I personally wouldn't worry much about the lack of taper, but then I don't worry too much about a lot of the things I'm supposed to. :)

Have fun with this bad boy!

... close Will, but I'm working off this one...

I know it's not fair as I have the tree close by in 3D ;) The second trunk will definitely be jinned. But this is only after I radically prune it off at the right time to induce back budding.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF0004r.jpg
    DSCF0004r.jpg
    56.2 KB · Views: 48

cquinn

Shohin
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
Thanks for you feedback, but has stated the photos do not do this tree credit. To cut it down to its lower branches is not an option , nor will this be carried out. In all honesty that would be a TOTAL waste of material. I am not trying to be conceited here but there is a tree there and one you have failed to see. I have several trees that are within the 6:1 ratio, this was chosen because it is out of the norm but within if you can catch my drift. I hold no dreams of this being as "world class" bonsai and hence I am not aiming for that. Is there any thing else you see in this tree? Because you will indeed be surprise of what this tree will look like in 5 years from now.

I'll vote with my feet on this one. Good Luck with it. Bye.
 

Rick Moquin

Omono
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
12
Location
Dartmouth, NS Canada
USDA Zone
6a
I'll vote with my feet on this one. Good Luck with it. Bye.

One of the pet peeves I have is people using pseudonyms. I am wide open to the world but yet we know little about you.

My response to your reply was indeed terse. Having said that I don't believe I have seen any of your prized possessions posted with the exception of you following in Warren's footsteps, and someone calling me a Walter follower.

Those that know me, know I do not mince my words. If you have something constructive to say, by all means. I'm all eyes and all ears. If you have nothing to offer then, ignore the post or if you respond negatively then at least have the cajonas to say why.

I am no neophyte, albeit I'm no master either.. I practice our craft in isolation and always welcome CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I have several trees that are worthy as a bonsaist. Are they world class? Hell no! ... and for those that only practice towards world class then get the frigg off your high horses, as only few make it. Is it good to aspire to grandeur? Absolutely! Is there room for anyone else? I sure as heck hope so.

I have been at this for 5 years, and have nothing to prove to anyone, but I am willing to learn. So unless your teaching, don't bother.

I don't have thin skin and can take it with the best. However, some comments are taken under advisement (which in case you don't know, in cultured circles means.....).

Folks wonder why we talk politics on the forum. Well as previously stated, we get a better response to our post than posting trees these days!!!

I apologize in advance to the forum, but I have been getting my nickers in a twist rather rapidly these days/years, with what is been going on, on the forums.

I requested ideas. I mentioned it is going to be bunjin, the final height around 28 inches. If we are discussing taper about an inch per foot. How much do we want? The top trunk is 1/2 - 5/8 inch.

I know where I would like to take this tree, I wish to seek other's visions. I could say this is where I am going, but then I would be limited to "my" vision. I am seeking feedback from folks who may have a vision.

To plant out a tree and cut it back to the first branch, is not constructive criticism! If you have 10-15 years, by all means.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

grouper52

Masterpiece
Messages
2,377
Reaction score
3,612
Location
Port Orchard, WA
USDA Zone
8
Of the various techniques to induce back budding, hard pruning of the primary and secondary leaders seems the most productive according to my own readings, my discussions with the experienced, and my own experiences. For pines this is safest when they are dormant in mid-winter - around the New Year is best here, since things are actually beginning to stir under the surface as early as mid to late January in our relatively mild climate. Where you are it can probably be done even much later.

The reason to do it then is that a major wound on most pines will bleed too much sap during times when it is flowing, especially when it is flowing heavily during spring, and much vigor will be lost, weakening or even sometimes killing the tree. If done when dormant in winter, it will heal over by the time the sap starts flowing during the huge outpouring of vigor in the spring - that vigor will then not be lost, and will have nowhere to go except into new growth, which will often then be stimulated even in formerly dormant buds on very old wood.
 

Bill S

Masterpiece
Messages
2,494
Reaction score
21
Location
Western Massachusetts
USDA Zone
5a
You said -
I saw a bunjin in this tree and welcome any other suggestions on direction to go with this.QUOTE]

Mr Quinn (really his name) gave advice that apparently you didn't want, then you trash him. I'll bet your panties are in a twist, if you don't want opinions Rick don't ask for them, you are getting cruder by the day, next time just say if you are better than me, offer your advise, that way we don't have to bother reading the post, your mastership.
 

irene_b

Omono
Messages
1,415
Reaction score
2
Rick, I agree with the Bunjin and can see this real well for this tree. Have you dug down to see what the roots are like on it? And have you picked a favorite front?
Irene
 

cquinn

Shohin
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
You said -
I saw a bunjin in this tree and welcome any other suggestions on direction to go with this.QUOTE]

Mr Quinn (really his name) gave advice that apparently you didn't want, then you trash him. I'll bet your panties are in a twist, if you don't want opinions Rick don't ask for them, you are getting cruder by the day, next time just say if you are better than me, offer your advise, that way we don't have to bother reading the post, your mastership.

Thanks Bill! I just tuned back in to see what was going on and found that things had blown up for some reason. I thought I gave what was asked. I guess my opinion on the subject wasn't appreciated. I'll not offer it again. Yours truly..............Christopher Quinn Jackson.
 

Attila Soos

Omono
Messages
1,804
Reaction score
34
Location
Los Angeles (Altadena), CA
USDA Zone
9
.. and always welcome CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

I prefer Critical Constructivism. It's much more pro-active, as it seeks solutions.

What about this step by step approach:

1. Select the trunk line that you see as the most interesting.

2. Cut short every branch that is NOT part of the trunk line, the only branch that should be left unpruned is the leader (the branch representing the final segment of the trunk line). Wire AWAY all the branches that seem to compete with the trunk.
This step#2 ensures that the energy from the branches is directed toward developing a trunk - your main goal at this point. Also, this step creates back-budding on ALL branches. Some of these branches will be selected later, others will be jinned.

3. Next year you work on the roots, there is nothing else to be done. Following this year's hard pruning, you should see small branches grow closer to the trun. This is vital, since your tree will be a bunjin, requiring foliage very close to the trunk.

4. The year after that you do more wiring of the newly created branches.


In my experience, if you don't select the trunk line very soon, and start pushing the foliage back on the rest of the branches, combined with some wiring, you will be looking at the same little bush, years from now. But if you do those things, you will get a big step closer every year.

The other thing I recommend is to take a picture of your tree, photoshop it into an image where you take away the contrast and add maximum light, and you print the picture. Your printout should be so that the page is almost white, and you can barely see a shadow of your tree. Then, following the outline of the tree, you draw over your sketch of the future image. Just like I did with my Hinoki in the "Cedar" thread.

This makes your sketching much easier, and the audience here can give you an opinion whether your goal is realistic.

(and don't be so harsh on Mr.Quinn, I have no doubt that he had the best intention in mind, with his advice).
 
Last edited:

Ang3lfir3

Omono
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
18
Location
Bremerton, WA
USDA Zone
8b
I thought I gave what was asked. I guess my opinion on the subject wasn't appreciated. I'll not offer it again. Yours truly..............Christopher Quinn Jackson.

saldy the opinion you offered was almost nothing more than "stick it in the ground and let it grow" this is advise best saved for persons who post sticks in pots. It is not in keeping with the request of someone who not only asked for inspired thoughts of what exists but even hinted at where he may want to go with it. The intent (i believe) of the post was to invoke conversation about the potential a piece of material might have. If you can't see the tree, unless it's a 1-2-3 field grown pine with perfectly placed branching and a boring trunk line that looks like every other pine out there, that is undestandable. However it would be far more respectful and friendly to even just ask that the original poster to highlight the visual they see even tho sometimes hard it shows the interest you apperantly had in the tree even tho you could offer no constructive comments as to its design.

and btw voting with your feet is something you do silently and without making a show of it... its intended to be a possitive action and not one drowned in negativety.
 
Last edited:

cquinn

Shohin
Messages
336
Reaction score
0
It's probably going to be at it's best if you cut back to one of those low branches after your happy with the trunk thickness and train it as a new trunk extension. Right now there just isn't enough taper. What's the nebari look like? That's very important, because you're not likely to change that. You might actually want to start there when you put it in the ground or growing pot next spring. Letting it just grow wild will not do anything for the nebari. It has to be trained as well or no matter what the tree looks like up top it'll never be great. I had an Hinoki in a showing several months back and most of the comments came about how cool the nebari was. The reason my tree stood out was because none of the other folks paid as much attention to the tree's roots. As much training if not more have to go into root training for a nice flat/concave root ball.


I didn't think this was bad. It's just what I would do. Sorry to all that were offended by it. This will be my last post on this forum. I'll check in when I'm bored at work probably, but I promise not to post again.
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom