aml1014
Masterpiece
As Adair pointed out, the broken ends are green for a little while, but soon will turn brown.
Aaron
Post your "Juniper Pinching" posts here!
- Thread starter Adair M
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Aaron
Yes but you can't see the pinching that was done on it last time (September) The only real difference between pinching and pruning is that you're removing more ''growing points''. I just pruned some a half an hour ago. If you want a rounded or reasonably even outline with the scissors you need to remove lots of tender little green shoots (tufts) as well as those deeper down with brown stems. Each individual scale which alternates up the stem hides a bud. So, either this bud will be stimulated to grow (or more often there are already 2 buds growing just behind it), or that small ''finger'' with the top removed will die and fall off just as the petiole from a defoliated maple does. I completely agree that constant pinching will weaken a tree but doing it once or twice per year doesn't seem to do much if any damage that I have noticed. So I do both including removing the elongated stems with scissors but I've never actually walked passed a juniper and noticed brown tips. (except for mite attacks of course)
Dalmat
Shohin
So, I guess those guys on 2:50 don't have a clue what they are doing or they are "old" school.
Ok, if you watch carefully, what Ryan is doing is cleaning and thinning the juniper. Yes, he uses his fingers, but watch carefully! He removes tufts of foliage! He's grabbing little tufts about an inch under outline of the canopy. Breaking them off at or near their connection point. But he does not pinch off the growing tips!
Dalmat
Shohin
So if I understand correctly, one is "pinching" if he removes growing tips no matter if he uses scissors or fingers.
If he removes tufts he is not "pinching",again no matter if he uses scissors or fingers.
If he removes tufts he is not "pinching",again no matter if he uses scissors or fingers.
Indeed. So don't do that.
When you remove a tuft of foliage, you remove a lot of growing tips with it. But when you look at the remaining foliage, all you see are growing tips.
Walk past your freshly pinched juniper next week, and you will see brown tips.
Going in and removing tufts also thins in the process, which allows sunlight in the interior.
Yes!
I've seen some junipers that were maintained by shearing! Like a hedge, with scissors. That's pinching - to the extreme.
The problem is not the tool used, it's how it's employed. My fingers aren't as strong as Ryan's, so to get the whole tuft, I use sharp scissors.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
It appears to me that they are cleaning and thinning. Probably prepping the tree for wiring. He never touches the growing tips of foliage that he is keeping. In fact, Ryan once said he never once pinched juniper foliage during his apprenticeship, does not practice it in his garden, and does not teach it to his students.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I wrote about the effects of grip & rip juniper pinching 2 1/2 years ago here:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/trimming-junipers-during-the-growing-season/
Here are some pix from the post.
Do this:
Not this:
Close-up of the pinched/scissor hedged area after a few weeks:
And 6 months later in the winter. The damage is obvious, compared with the areas not treated this way:
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/trimming-junipers-during-the-growing-season/
Here are some pix from the post.
Do this:
Not this:
Close-up of the pinched/scissor hedged area after a few weeks:
And 6 months later in the winter. The damage is obvious, compared with the areas not treated this way:
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Same spot now, almost 3 years after the original insult. The pinched/hedged shoot next to the red arrow, and the juniper's response above the green arrow. As you can see, the tree abandoned the pinched shoot, and a new one took over. The pinched shoot will eventually die.
This should demonstrate the long term effect of pinching. You don't want to end up with all the terminals being abandoned in a "finished" tree. It will stay perpetually weak, and unpredictable.
This should demonstrate the long term effect of pinching. You don't want to end up with all the terminals being abandoned in a "finished" tree. It will stay perpetually weak, and unpredictable.
drew33998
Masterpiece
Makes sense. I have no junipers in this stage of development. I have relegated all my junipers to the growing stage as most were purchased as a noob. Have some nice shimps coming along. Maybe 5 years will see them at this stage.
Let them grow! Runners is a sign of good root growth.
carp
Chumono
All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.
Is it even worth the effort of trying to help them understand at this point Adair? You'll just be put on blast on Facebook later anyhow
Is it even worth the effort of trying to help them understand at this point Adair? You'll just be put on blast on Facebook later anyhow
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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From what I can see, Adair is totally up for the challenge... let 'er rip, Adair!!All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.
Is it even worth the effort of trying to help them understand at this point Adair? You'll just be put on blast on Facebook later anyhow
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
One of my Shimpakus, both techniques are utilized. It is a Kishu which tend to be more eaisly managed than the other Shimps.
The concept of plucking which is called pinching by some schools of thought does not leave brown ends commonly reported schools of thought. The concept of plucking the ends of the over extended foliage will not leave brown ends any more than cutting with scissors. Both techniques demand that they be done properly. Plucking/pinching is the process where by the soft ends of the foliage is removed by causing it to be broken and removed at the joints that exist between the scales in the foliage. It takes a bit of finess and some people use too much force to do it or growth the is too old and should be cut with scissors.
If you get a brown ends it is because the growth was too old and it tore as opposed to snapping off as described. Did you ever eat a spear of Asparagus that was too old? It tends to be fibrous and will tear and be hard to chew. A just ripe piece of Asparagus will break cleanly and be nice to chew. If you cut back, obviously with scissors, to a crotch and avoid cutting green growth or, if you cut crotches and joints in the green you will probably not see any brown ends though that does not mean you don't have them, they're just not visible unless you go hunting for them.
I moved this post over from another thread.
I added a couple of photos of a Shimpaku I have been working on for at least 15 years. You decide how they are cared for. The one is in Winter bronze, and will have to be thined out and opened up to allow light in. The first picture is from about five years ago in the process of adjusting form. This year the major trunk is going to have to have some shape imparted to it.
Vance Wood, Yesterday at 10:43 AMReport
#22Reply
The concept of plucking which is called pinching by some schools of thought does not leave brown ends commonly reported schools of thought. The concept of plucking the ends of the over extended foliage will not leave brown ends any more than cutting with scissors. Both techniques demand that they be done properly. Plucking/pinching is the process where by the soft ends of the foliage is removed by causing it to be broken and removed at the joints that exist between the scales in the foliage. It takes a bit of finess and some people use too much force to do it or growth the is too old and should be cut with scissors.
If you get a brown ends it is because the growth was too old and it tore as opposed to snapping off as described. Did you ever eat a spear of Asparagus that was too old? It tends to be fibrous and will tear and be hard to chew. A just ripe piece of Asparagus will break cleanly and be nice to chew. If you cut back, obviously with scissors, to a crotch and avoid cutting green growth or, if you cut crotches and joints in the green you will probably not see any brown ends though that does not mean you don't have them, they're just not visible unless you go hunting for them.
I moved this post over from another thread.
I added a couple of photos of a Shimpaku I have been working on for at least 15 years. You decide how they are cared for. The one is in Winter bronze, and will have to be thined out and opened up to allow light in. The first picture is from about five years ago in the process of adjusting form. This year the major trunk is going to have to have some shape imparted to it.
Vance Wood, Yesterday at 10:43 AMReport
#22Reply
carp
Chumono
Vance, now compare what you've been doing to what Ryan Neil or Michael Haggerdorn have been doing....or Adair and Brian.
wireme
Masterpiece
I totally agree, done right it does not leave brown ends. I very rarely do pinch juniper tips but those that I have have never turned brown, ever, I don't understand why everyone keeps saying they do.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I see brown ends because in the pinching process the ends have been crushed not broken off, which is what I have been saying.
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