Preparing American deciduous broadleaved trees

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,181
Reaction score
22,178
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Hey Man,

I am obviously much newer at this than you and definitely much...much...much newer than Walter ;). I have been looking through Zach Smiths website, and I do not see a huge degree of difference between his material and the Hornbeams in Chicago (besides the noticeably larger surface roots). They all look like chopped stumps that still have many years ahead of them. What exactly is it that you look for in trunk chopped deciduous Yamadori since you are essentially building from scratch?

Thanks for any/all info!

PS Alvaro's material is on a whole other level, it's very obvious to see the difference there.

"What exactly is it that you look for in trunk chopped deciduous Yamadori since you are essentially building from scratch?"

To answer this specifically, you look for finer, evenly distributed surface roots (not one or two HUGE roots that shoot off to one side or another or are the only roots visible.) You look for a trunk that can have some taper forced into it with a chop -- either through an extension apex, or through multiple apices, as is shown in stickroot's photo. Big trunk chops on Carolina hornbeam are problematic, as the bigger the trunk, the slower the healing. A multi-stem apex can offer a solution to that dilemma.

Additionally, you ideally want a trunk that has some "real" age to it--mature bark, "muscled up" trunk butressing--ridges etc. Trunks that have immature bark, no significant diameter aren't worth collecting or paying for. .
 

Walter Pall

Masterpiece
Messages
3,616
Reaction score
20,292
Location
south of Munich, Germany
USDA Zone
7b
As an example: this is a Croatian collected Oriental Hornbeam. The fist image is of 10 years ago and the others as of November 2017. Now the task is to find more of this sort of raw materila in America I suppose. Note that the tree has two equally good fronts as trees in the Naturalistic Style often have.

02-Carpinus-orientalis-04.2007.jpg TSA_1043w.jpg TSA_1044w.jpg
 

Walter Pall

Masterpiece
Messages
3,616
Reaction score
20,292
Location
south of Munich, Germany
USDA Zone
7b
I show these trees not to show off but to make visible what is possible. Ten years ago, in 2007 I came to Croatia for the firs time to see them working with little trident maples and some trees from a nursery. On the trip down I had seen thousands of excellent collectible hornbeams. I taught them what to look for and to forget everything they have learned about styling of broadleaved trees. They were, as still up to now the majority of American bonsaiists under the impression that the only acceptable form for these trees was the Informal Upright Form with rigid branch placing and NO BIG WOUNDS. Now, ten years later they beat everyone in Europe with broadleaved collected trees. Imagine what these trees will look like in 30 years!

The Informal Upright Form is the form of an ideal pine tree. It is usually not suitable for broadleaved trees. You can quote me.

Now why is this not yet happening in America?

The two trees that I showed so far do not have big wounds or they are closed already after this short time. Thus they might even appeal to fundamentalists. Material for such trees is extremely rare. But it is not necessary to just look for this. We were led to believe that it is written in stone that broadleaved trees must never have big wounds. We are not aware that this notion was invented to help the huge nursery industry in Japan which did not want the competition with trees which were collected in nature just like it is with conifers, where nursery trees find it very tough to compete with collected trees. This is because on conifers big wounds, deadwood is not only OK but desirable.

Imagine if we realizde that we are brainwashed and came to the conclusion that big wounds on broadleaved trees are acceptable and even desirable! End of civilisation!

I am very well aware that this hornbeam is very strange to many who are still in the old school thinking. Well it does appeal to more folks than they like to understand. Anyway, regardless whether one likes it or not, the first image was four years ago and the last one November 2017. Give him ten more years and he will be the gnarly old tree who owns the mountain - ugly but quite impressive. Ugly? Yes, one can impress with ugliness. It is art and not commercial craft for me. A good bonsai does not have to be beautiful, but it must be imprssive.

Now this material dos look more like the stuff they have at Hidden Gardens south of Chicago.

2013-02-182477_628975923786151_923076534_n.jpg 2017-11-TSA_1192ofw.jpg
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,724
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
They were, as still up to now the majority of American bonsaiists under the impression that the only acceptable form for these trees was the Informal Upright Form with rigid branch placing and NO BIG WOUNDS.

The Informal Upright Form is the form of an ideal pine tree. It is usually not suitable for broadleaved trees. You can quote me.

Now why is this not yet happening in America?

Thus they might even appeal to fundamentalists.

Imagine if we realizde that we are brainwashed and came to the conclusion that big wounds on broadleaved trees are acceptable and even desirable! End of civilisation!

Ugly? Yes, one can impress with ugliness. It is art and not commercial craft for me. A good bonsai does not have to be beautiful, but it must be imprssive.

Lots of arrogant bullshit here........
 

mcpesq817

Omono
Messages
1,810
Reaction score
499
Location
VA
USDA Zone
7
A year or two ago, I spoke with one of the American professionals that spent a few years as an apprentice in Japan. He said that deciduous trees in Japan are like on an 80-year timetable to get to a "finished" product. They are slowly grown, with lots of attention paid towards eliminating scars, getting perfect taper and nebari, etc. It was interesting because I have a few collected deciduous trees, including large collected bald cypress and cedar elm, and a few large tridents that were field grown. They all had big scars from chops, etc., . The pro was very adamant that the first thing to do with the trees was to heal the scars. He said that all you end up getting with scars is future rot, and eventually, the trees end up rotting out and you don't see them a decade later. One of my BCs was carved by Guy Guidry to represent an old hollowed out BC - I've had people look at the tree and love it, but it really didn't fit the pro's aesthetic.

We in the US don't have the the numbers of professional growers/developers that Japan does. We certainly have Brent and a few others, but not like the scale in Japan. So, if you want larger deciduous trees, you usually have to go with collected material. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so. Personally, I think Walter's trees are amazing and look more like old trees that you see here. The Japanese trees are really nice too, but a different aesthetic. For scars and rotting issues, it seems that Walter doesn't seem to have those issues that the pro warned about.
 

jeanluc83

Omono
Messages
1,452
Reaction score
1,623
Location
Eastern Connecticut
USDA Zone
6a
Imagine if we realizde that we are brainwashed and came to the conclusion that big wounds on broadleaved trees are acceptable and even desirable! End of civilisation!

Maybe this was the case in Europe 20 years ago and maybe it still is but I don't think that is the case here in the states. Look at the work of Dan Robinson. He has been creating broadleaf trees that feature dead wood for over 50 years.
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,668
Reaction score
20,724
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Maybe this was the case in Europe 20 years ago and maybe it still is but I don't think that is the case here in the states. Look at the work of Dan Robinson. He has been creating broadleaf trees that feature dead wood for over 50 years.
Like sexual harassment today, Europeans calling Americans amateurs is "edgy".
 

Zach Smith

Omono
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
2,851
Location
St. Francisville, LA
USDA Zone
8
Hey Man,

I am obviously much newer at this than you and definitely much...much...much newer than Walter ;). I have been looking through Zach Smiths website, and I do not see a huge degree of difference between his material and the Hornbeams in Chicago (besides the noticeably larger surface roots). They all look like chopped stumps that still have many years ahead of them. What exactly is it that you look for in trunk chopped deciduous Yamadori since you are essentially building from scratch?

Thanks for any/all info!

PS Alvaro's material is on a whole other level, it's very obvious to see the difference there.
The goal is to collect an older "stump," if you will, that has good character, taper and nice nebari (which I bury to protect it, which does detract from appearances but the tree's health is paramount) that can be developed quickly by growing the upper part of the tree. Most are literally just large sticks, but that's almost always the best way. The Chicago material has obviously been held for a few years, hence the "preparation." I don't hold trees all that long, maybe through an initial styling; they might as well go make folks happy.

You bet these trees have many years ahead of them, but it's far better to start out with a stump that's 50 years old with character than ... well, what is that alternative? Seed, seedlings, cuttings, commercial nursery stock (which is mostly inferior). It takes time to field-grown material into something nice. So for my money, the collected tree just can't be beat.
 
Top Bottom