Progressing American Bonsai

[Nybonsai12]

Good, bad, or indifferent, HOW we criticize may be as important as why.

Criticisms need never be "brutal" in order to convey ones message.

I agree with this. I have thick skin so I can take it but others may not. I have a trident thread i started last year where several people made comments like "nice tree" etc and offered some thoughts. Then Smoke came in and told me my tree had crap branching, no taper and wouldn't amount to much as is. I didn't invest much money in the tree but it still stung a little because I was initially excited about the tree.
BUT he also offered helpful suggestions on how to fix it and that is why his honesty, although slightly brutal was so useful. And that is what i took away from it. Knowledge. I still have excitement for the tree on how to change it and make it into something.


I wouldn't want to discourage newbies and if it means coddling a bit with "good job" or "nice tree" is it really such a terrible thing? More people coming into bonsai is a good thing, even if most will never get very skilled.

 

[Poink88]

I wouldn't want to discourage newbies and if it means coddling a bit with "good job" or "nice tree" is it really such a terrible thing? More people coming into bonsai is a good thing, even if most will never get very skilled.

I agree with you that we need to praise appropriate to the skill level. Keeping a tree alive may be a feat worth praising a newbie. I praise my child doing addition at 1st grade. Should I praise her doing addition at 5th grade? I bet you I won't.

When I see a tree with major structural problems coming from a seasoned bonsai artist, I cringe and will mostly likely not praise the tree/bonsai...even if it is full of wonderful flowers. I may compliment the flowers though.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I had a serious discussion idea that I though was
an important topic relating to Bonsai, and worth
discussing...


Can I throw this off on a different dirrection ???
See to me, one of the biggest changes I see happening
in American Style which I know has been happening
for some time now... is the getting rid of necessarily
padding everything up on the tree.

Alot of this has changed with our moving to a more
natural looking tree, which does not obviously always
have pads...

This style which the Europeans have been doing for
quite a while, is what I personally think has resulted
in their moving ahead in the Talent pool. While we
were pinching and frantically worrying about front branch
/back branches, and pyramid shapes...

A few things that should be noted with this approach.

1. rougher, collected stock can more easily be turned
into a descent bonsai with this approach. Where as
normally with padding, it would not be acceptable.

2. more brances are left on the tree with this approach,
which not only leads to a much faster recovery time,
allowing even more work to be done on the tree. But,
the trees obviously grow and age faster.

And most importantly...

It also allows for one to often have an almost instant
bonsai with a very finished look, Even though it may
be the tree's first styling.

Some of the trees I am seeing now being created... are
obviously meant to be shown naked, for the branch work is
increditable, and has 5 million branches !!! These are trees
where obviously the negative space in a tree's design...
Is no longer being considered part of the tree.

The answer to your question is not to get rid of the rules because they take too long but to ask yourself, "Perhaps I don't understand the rules well enough?". Then as you dig further you may discover there are no rules in Japan. There is sensitivity and artistic feeling that grows with time as apprentices steal information with their eyes. The so called rules are a non-Japanese author's interpretation of the styling of bonsai translated into English, oversimplified, over-generalized, written for the beginner and published in America. Try to ask a Japanese bonsai master about the 1-2-3 branch rules and see if they have a clue to what you are talking about.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I know this is kinda a side track from my thread's
intent...

But it's worth it

View attachment 31582

Punica granatum (Pomegranate)

This tree has pads and structure and took years to design. Branches were selected and allowed to grow, then most were cut back the next year, then the process repeated until the basic structure was present. After this initial 3-4 year process, the ramification became the focus. No short cuts here or taper would be nonexistent. So I am not sure understand how this picture supports your initial statements.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree with this. I have thick skin so I can take it but others may not. I have a trident thread i started last year where several people made comments like "nice tree" etc and offered some thoughts. Then Smoke came in and told me my tree had crap branching, no taper and wouldn't amount to much as is. I didn't invest much money in the tree but it still stung a little because I was initially excited about the tree.
BUT he also offered helpful suggestions on how to fix it and that is why his honesty, although slightly brutal was so useful. And that is what i took away from it. Knowledge. I still have excitement for the tree on how to change it and make it into something.


I wouldn't want to discourage newbies and if it means coddling a bit with "good job" or "nice tree" is it really such a terrible thing? More people coming into bonsai is a good thing, even if most will never get very skilled.

That's kind of a slippery slope with me. Sure, you want to encourage someone to continue, but continue in what? I don't think it's fair to encourage a really bad design option that will lead no where, and in the end waste the newbies time effort and material. I also don't think it is right to slap the person over the head with a club.

However; most people are open to the truth and mature enough to accept the truth rather than discovering they have been given the mushroom treatment for the last two years; been fed crap and kept in the dark. If it becomes apparent that the newbie wants to go down the nowhere-bonsai trail, and you feel bad in helping them do so, then just recuse your self from offering advise.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

in my opinion, those two trees could stand to be thinned out A LOT.

rarely does a real tree develop that kind of density. They end up looking more like shrubs.

Rarely are trees in the wild found in ceramic pots either. And actually, many old, mature deciduous trees do develop incredible density. I would suggest, rather than chopping up a show ready bonsai, to drive around and closely examining the shrubs around your home and in the neighborhood and see if you can tell a difference between those shrubs and the two trees pictured in this thread. You may start to discern a few differences, such as with the pomegranate, there's taper not only in the trunk but all the branches as well, no crossing branches, incredible vigorous and balanced interior growth, movement, and consistent feeling of movement from branch to branch.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[berobinson82]

That's kind of a slippery slope with me. Sure, you want to encourage someone to continue, but continue in what? I don't think it's fair to encourage a really bad design option that will lead no where, and in the end waste the newbies time effort and material. I also don't think it is right to slap the person over the head with a club.

However; most people are open to the truth and mature enough to accept the truth rather than discovering they have been given the mushroom treatment for the last two years; been fed crap and kept in the dark. If it becomes apparent that the newbie wants to go down the nowhere-bonsai trail, and you feel bad in helping them do so, then just recuse your self from offering advise.

Sounds like you're talking about respect.

Respecting someone enough not to hit them with the club but also respecting them enough not to encourage poor design choices. I'd totally sign up for that style of education.

 

[Vance Wood]

Rarely are trees in the wild found in ceramic pots either. And actually, many old, mature deciduous trees do develop incredible density. I would suggest, rather than chopping up a show ready bonsai, to drive around and closely examining the shrubs around your home and in the neighborhood and see if you can tell a difference between those shrubs and the two trees pictured in this thread. You may start to discern a few differences, such as with the pomegranate, there's taper not only in the trunk but all the branches as well, no crossing branches, incredible vigorous and balanced interior growth, movement, and consistent feeling of movement from branch to branch.

Kind regards,
Darth

A lot of trees in the Japanese tradition are grown for their beautiful profiles in the nude, the way they look without leaves. We tend not to do that here in America simply because it's just too much work. You are right however, when they are in leaf they tend to look like a bush. A lot of growers grow Trident Maple with this same goal in mind because they ramify so well and look good without leaves. We tend to forget that some trees only look good at certain times of the year.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

A lot of trees in the Japanese tradition are grown for their beautiful profiles in the nude, the way they look without leaves. We tend not to do that here in America simply because it's just too much work. You are right however, when they are in leaf they tend to look like a bush. A lot of growers grow Trident Maple with this same goal in mind because they ramify so well and look good without leaves. We tend to forget that some trees only look good at certain times of the year.

Let me clarify. We don't grow these in America because for the most part, we lack the skill and knowledge to do so. Acquiring the skill and knowledge requires first acknowledging that somebody else can do it better than you.

These trees look fantastic with leaves too, very different than bushes. But with the bare version you have no leeway to cheat whatsoever. Every scar shows. Poor taper glares at the observer. The branch structure becomes evident.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Poink88]

Let me clarify. We don't grow these in America because for the most part, we lack the skill and knowledge to do so. Acquiring the skill and knowledge requires first acknowledging that somebody else can do it better than you.

That is quite a statement and I disagree. Lacking the skill and knowledge vs not electing to do it are 2 totally different things. I believe we have several here in the USA who can do these IF they choose to. Might take longer (due to shorter growing period) but that too is another topic.

 

[Vance Wood]

Rarely are trees in the wild found in ceramic pots either. And actually, many old, mature deciduous trees do develop incredible density. I would suggest, rather than chopping up a show ready bonsai, to drive around and closely examining the shrubs around your home and in the neighborhood and see if you can tell a difference between those shrubs and the two trees pictured in this thread. You may start to discern a few differences, such as with the pomegranate, there's taper not only in the trunk but all the branches as well, no crossing branches, incredible vigorous and balanced interior growth, movement, and consistent feeling of movement from branch to branch.

Kind regards,
Darth

That's the difference between a metaphor and a simile. One is a bush and the other is like a bush. Often it takes close examination to determine the differences especially in this case.

 

[october]

The Japanese tend to commit 100% to the things they undertake. Look at the ideology of the samurai etc.. Although talent in bonsai, talent referring to having a good eye, is always a factor. I believe that passion is and will be the key for advancing american bonsai. When someone is passionate about a subject, practically anything is possible. Especially is passion borders on obsession. Which can be very powerful tools.

Also, I agree with Vance that if someone has experience and he notices someone new to the art making what would be considered mistakes or a bad choice. It is good to at least let them know that their plan might not be the best option and why. Then let them make the decision.

Here is a hypothetical situation. I need to add that I am not a carpenter....

Someone posts on a wood working forum that they are going to build a shed in their back yard. They draw it out and post that this is what they want to do. They have a specific wood in mind to use and they have their roof all drawn out. This person in turn posts that they are new and would like to know how to go about creating their design.
An experienced carpenter comes on and suggests that due to the area the poster lives in, which is the same as the experienced carpenter, he might want to use a different type of wood. With the winters they get, he suggests another wood that will hold up much better. Also, he mentions that the roof the person is intent on building might not be the best option. He later explains that due to the heavy snow fall in the area. The roof of the shed may not be structurally sound. It may collapse in just a few years. He states these things because the situation happened to him and he was just giving the poster a heads up.
Now, where does your opinion stand... Should the more experienced carpenter not have said anything and let the poster build the roof his way?..should he have encouraged the poster to build the roof like he intened and not made him aware of the good possibilities of what might happen.
Personally I feel that it is always good to share experience or general practice that is considered common knowledge on a subject. I agree you have to be supportive and encouraging. However, wouldn't it just be decent to not deliberatley lead someone down the wrong path? In the case of the shed building. The master carpenter is not discouraging the person from building a shed, but rather giving the person cautions and lending advice that will work out much better in the end.

Rob

 

[Darth Tanuki]

That is quite a statement and I disagree. Lacking the skill and knowledge vs not electing to do it are 2 totally different things. I believe we have several here in the USA who can do these IF they choose to. Might take longer (due to shorter growing period) but that too is another topic.

Please help me understand why would someone take the time and effort to learn how to make world class deciduous bonsai and then choose not to. Please elaborate on this line of logic.

 

[Poink88]

Please help me understand why would someone take the time and effort to learn how to make world class deciduous bonsai and then choose not to. Please elaborate on this line of logic.

Preference. What you and I want might not be their thing. What you consider as beautiful might not turn them on.

Let me ask you...if Bill V decides to make one...you think he doesn't have the skill and talent to pull it?

 

[Darth Tanuki]

That's the difference between a metaphor and a simile. One is a bush and the other is like a bush. Often it takes close examination to determine the differences especially in this case.

Does it really take that long to determine if this is a bush or a bonsai?

http://dupuich.smugmug.com/Japan201...45810_TkFjwr#!i=1609601438&k=Qqr7DPH&lb=1&s=A

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Preference. What you and I want might not be their thing. What you consider as beautiful might not turn them on.

Let me ask you...if Bill V decides to make one...you think he doesn't have the skill and talent to pull it?

What do you think? He gets the best ramification he can with the species and climate available.

http://bonsaijournal.com/images/bValavanisProfile/billpruning.jpg

What are you really trying to say? That you don't have these trees cause you have a different palate?

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Poink88]

We don't grow these in America because for the most part, we lack the skill and knowledge to do so.

What do you think? He gets the best ramification he can with the species and climate available.

http://bonsaijournal.com/images/bValavanisProfile/billpruning.jpg

What are you really trying to say? That you don't have these trees cause you have a different palate?

What are you saying...you are eating your previous words?

 

[Poink88]

BTW, thank you for proving exactly my point.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

What are you saying...you are eating your previous words?

No words eaten. My point is, what you took exception to, was that FOR THE MOST PART, we lack the skill and knowledge. Just because a handful of bonsai artists in the US can produce a quality tree does not change my point. You tried to make it sound like you and most others on this forum have the capability to produce these world class trees and CHOOSE not to. So which is it? Can you and then you choose not to because you don't really like how they look, or is it beyond your skill set?

 

[Poink88]

That is quite a statement and I disagree. Lacking the skill and knowledge vs not electing to do it are 2 totally different things. I believe we have several here in the USA who can do these IF they choose to. Might take longer (due to shorter growing period) but that too is another topic.

No words eaten. My point is, what you took exception to, was that FOR THE MOST PART, we lack the skill and knowledge. Just because a handful of bonsai artists in the US can produce a quality tree does not change my point. You tried to make it sound like you and most others on this forum have the capability to produce these world class trees and CHOOSE not to. So which is it? Can you and then you choose not to because you don't really like how they look, or is it beyond your skill set?

Did you read and try to understand my reply to you? I am a newbie...have no skill set to do it but believe some in America can.