Progressing American Bonsai

[Darth Tanuki]

Did you read and try to understand my reply to you? I am a newbie...have no skill set to do it but believe some in America can.

It's good to believe in things. Nice dancin wit ya.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Dario,

Darth said that for the most part we do not have the skill set in America. He is correct! If 200-300 people can, then he is still right, because that 200-300 people would be the less part of all the people in America doing bonsai. By the way, I am not one of the hypothetical group of 200-300 people I arbitrarily created who can and I could not name 200-300 people in America that could do that and I'm not sure that they exist.

Bill Valvanis certainly is one who can, has and continues to create world class deciduous, evergreen, semi-evergreen and tropical (and any other group imaginable) trees.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Vance Wood]

What happened to Sawgrass, this is his thread, he started it after all? It seems all of us have kind of hijacked it to an extent. I would like to hear what he thinks.

 

[Vance Wood]

Dario,

Darth said that for the most part we do not have the skill set in America. He is correct! If 200-300 people can, then he is still right, because that 200-300 people would be the less part of all the people in America doing bonsai. By the way, I am not one of the hypothetical group of 200-300 people I arbitrarily created who can and I could not name 200-300 people in America that could do that and I not sure that they exist.

Bill Valvanis certainly is one who can, has and continues to create world class deciduous, evergreen, semi-evergreen and tropical (and any other group imaginable) trees.

Regards,
Martin

It is possible that there are not that many people doing bonsai in America that are interested enough in this aspect of bonsai to make an effort to do it. Before anyone can be an expert in anything they first have to have an interest in it, the passion, and the tenacity to pursue this highly specialized endeavor that is only visible for a few short weeks in the year. To use the argument that the Japanese artists do this, kind of flies in the face of what I thought was the original premiss of this thread----I think----I'm not sure, American bonsai? What the Japanese think and do is irrelevant-----I think.

 

[october]

Here is a link that will make everything make sense and bring us to reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GYTT9j6EFQ

Some of you have probably seen this video. I encourage you to watch the whole video. Paying attention to each tree show.

These are the teachers, creators and now, the competition. It is a battle not for winning or a victory, but a battle for us and other countries to learn as much as possible from the Japanese.

If groups continuously rebel, disagree and somehow view tradition as a prison. Us bonsai will never progress beyond where it is. So while people are talking about natural looking trees, talking about how they don't prefer pads on trees or talking about avoiding the triangle. The Japanese just do and they do according to the tree..deciduous style like decidious, conifers like conifers. However, if an individual tree seems to be better as a looser intepretation of nature, so be it.

After watching this video. It is blantantly obvious who is the leader in bonsai. Why, some could say because they created the art. However, I believe it is because they continue to just do. Their trees have reached a point where they are almost omnipotent. If this level is ever to be neared by US. It is time to take the rebel hat off, and learn the fact that there is so much to learn.

p.s. The name Ryan Neil comes up quite often now a days. He has some amazing trees. People view them as master pieces. I believe it has been said some of his bonsai are some of the best in the US....Well, he studied with Kimura in Japan for 5 years. Learned Kimura's way and was also deeply involved with Japanese tradition and bonsai ideologies. Kimura taught him and he brought it back here. There you go..Just learned and did. Ryans work is incredibly similar, almost identical in many ways to Kimuras work.

Rob

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Vance,

Sorry, I thought we were talking about "progressing" Bonsai in America to be comparable to the best in the world, which I thought is what is being done in Japan, specifically in regards to temperate, deciduous tree species branch ramification as shown in the 2 pictures attached by Sawgrass.

I think understanding that it is a difficult thing to achieve quickly and without the correct understanding of proper technique, timing and plant reaction is important. Also, understanding that few, myself included, here are currently achieving these results is important. If we cannot agree where we are at, how can we determine how to "progress"?

I am starting, partially inspired by you, by acquiring better knowledge, behaving more professionally when working on my trees and demanding better results from my work.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Darth Tanuki]

It is possible that there are not that many people doing bonsai in America that are interested enough in this aspect of bonsai to make an effort to do it. Before anyone can be an expert in anything they first have to have an interest in it, the passion, and the tenacity to pursue this highly specialized endeavor that is only visible for a few short weeks in the year. To use the argument that the Japanese artists do this, kind of flies in the face of what I thought was the original premiss of this thread----I think----I'm not sure, American bonsai? What the Japanese think and do is irrelevant-----I think.

The original point of the thread was doing things faster and not following "the rules" to speed things up: Sawgrass wrote, "And most importantly...It also allows for one to often have an almost instant bonsai with a very finished look, Even though it maybe the tree's first styling."
There was also a comment on believing that the pictured deciduous specimens needed "A LOT" of thinning out after being masterfully created. Then a comment on how those trees could be so commonplace here it's just that's not what we Americans want. Now we are at the number 200-300 Americans can produce these trees. After reading this, I thought I immediately needed to check ebay and buy some since certainly this many people producing this level of tree would drive the supply up and the price down. Couldn't find any though. You are right though, that most do not put forth the effort to learn the right technique, but would rather find a shortcut for immediate gratification. This ideology produces poor bonsai.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

Sorry, I thought we were talking about "progressing" Bonsai in America to be comparable to the best in the world, which I thought is what is being done in Japan, specifically in regards to temperate, deciduous tree species branch ramification as shown in the 2 pictures attached by Sawgrass.

I think understanding that it is a difficult thing to achieve quickly and without the correct understanding of proper technique, timing and plant reaction is important. Also, understanding that few, myself included, here are currently achieving these results is important. If we cannot agree where we are at, how can we determine how to "progress"?

I am starting, partially inspired by you, by acquiring better knowledge, behaving more professionally when working on my trees and demanding better results from my work.

Regards,
Martin

What exactly this thread was or is supposed to be about remains a question. The term progressing bonsai in America could be taken as progressing the concept of an American Bonsai. you wrote:

If we cannot agree where we are at, how can we determine how to "progress"?

No truer statement or question has been made anywhere in these discussions. You have to know where you are before you can decide on a direction to get you where you want to go. Often this means getting rid of a lot of mental baggage and technical do-overs where you/me/we/them/us keep doing the same thing the same way expecting a different outcome every time: the definition of insanity.

Pig Killer from Mad Max Beyond Thunder Dome: No matter where you go, there you are.

 

[Poink88]

No words eaten. My point is, what you took exception to, was that FOR THE MOST PART, we lack the skill and knowledge. Just because a handful of bonsai artists in the US can produce a quality tree does not change my point. You tried to make it sound like you and most others on this forum have the capability to produce these world class trees and CHOOSE not to. So which is it? Can you and then you choose not to because you don't really like how they look, or is it beyond your skill set?

FYI, I NEVER referred to my skills or this forum in any of my posts, please prove me wrong if I did. Otherwise, you are just making stories in your mind and we have a term for that. Luckily there are institutions for it too.

 

[A Random User]

The answer to your question is not to get rid of the rules because they take too long but to ask yourself, "Perhaps I don't understand the rules well enough?". Then as you dig further you may discover there are no rules in Japan. There is sensitivity and artistic feeling that grows with time as apprentices steal information with their eyes. The so called rules are a non-Japanese author's interpretation of the styling of bonsai translated into English, oversimplified, over-generalized, written for the beginner and published in America. Try to ask a Japanese bonsai master about the 1-2-3 branch rules and see if they have a clue to what you are talking about.

Kind regards,
Darth

Thanks for your reply, to the original concept of this thread...
but, with all due respect, I wasn't asking a question...
I was just stating my views of where and how I think American
Bonsai has made advancements.

As far as Bonsai rules... this again is still a cohesive observation of
where Bonsai in America has been for sometime, it has been changing
over the years though...

 

[A Random User]

This tree has pads and structure and took years to design. Branches were selected and allowed to grow, then most were cut back the next year, then the process repeated until the basic structure was present. After this initial 3-4 year process, the ramification became the focus. No short cuts here or taper would be nonexistent. So I am not sure understand how this picture supports your initial statements.

Kind regards,
Darth

Again, with all due respect... I have no where in any of these posts
said there was any short cuts to anything...

So I am not sure where you are getting your info from ???
If one goes back and re-reads the first initial post you will see
that the only perhaps reference to any sort of time would be in the
inital styling of more natural trees where alot more branches have
been left on the tree...

To this I said ;

more brances are left on the tree with this approach,
which not only leads to a much faster recovery time,
allowing even more work to be done on the tree. But,
the trees obviously grow and age faster.


It also allows for one to often have an almost instant
bonsai with a very finished look, Even though it may
be the tree's first styling.

You will note by what I have said... that I neither referred to any so
called "Short-Cuts"... Nor did I at all refer to the trees that were
posted, and which you are responding too...

Now, I am not trying to be insulting by this...
But please, Take a moment and read what I have written.

 

[A Random User]

Rarely are trees in the wild found in ceramic pots either. And actually, many old, mature deciduous trees do develop incredible density. I would suggest, rather than chopping up a show ready bonsai, to drive around and closely examining the shrubs around your home and in the neighborhood and see if you can tell a difference between those shrubs and the two trees pictured in this thread. You may start to discern a few differences, such as with the pomegranate, there's taper not only in the trunk but all the branches as well, no crossing branches, incredible vigorous and balanced interior growth, movement, and consistent feeling of movement from branch to branch.

Kind regards,
Darth

This was obviously just her opinion towards this style of tree...
I personally very much appreciate this type of style.
Having said this I can see where one might not, for some
really like the use of negative space, and find it just as valueable
in the design of Bonsai, as another branch.

 

[A Random User]

The Japanese tend to commit 100% to the things they undertake. Look at the ideology of the samurai etc.. Although talent in bonsai, talent referring to having a good eye, is always a factor. I believe that passion is and will be the key for advancing american bonsai. When someone is passionate about a subject, practically anything is possible. Especially is passion borders on obsession. Which can be very powerful tools.

Also, I agree with Vance that if someone has experience and he notices someone new to the art making what would be considered mistakes or a bad choice. It is good to at least let them know that their plan might not be the best option and why. Then let them make the decision.

Here is a hypothetical situation. I need to add that I am not a carpenter....

Someone posts on a wood working forum that they are going to build a shed in their back yard. They draw it out and post that this is what they want to do. They have a specific wood in mind to use and they have their roof all drawn out. This person in turn posts that they are new and would like to know how to go about creating their design.
An experienced carpenter comes on and suggests that due to the area the poster lives in, which is the same as the experienced carpenter, he might want to use a different type of wood. With the winters they get, he suggests another wood that will hold up much better. Also, he mentions that the roof the person is intent on building might not be the best option. He later explains that due to the heavy snow fall in the area. The roof of the shed may not be structurally sound. It may collapse in just a few years. He states these things because the situation happened to him and he was just giving the poster a heads up.
Now, where does your opinion stand... Should the more experienced carpenter not have said anything and let the poster build the roof his way?..should he have encouraged the poster to build the roof like he intened and not made him aware of the good possibilities of what might happen.
Personally I feel that it is always good to share experience or general practice that is considered common knowledge on a subject. I agree you have to be supportive and encouraging. However, wouldn't it just be decent to not deliberatley lead someone down the wrong path? In the case of the shed building. The master carpenter is not discouraging the person from building a shed, but rather giving the person cautions and lending advice that will work out much better in the end.

Rob

Now see Rob, I agree with this...
By the way weren't you the one whoposted a thread a while back was asking
about the bonsai of today, and the almost instant Bonsai ???

This thread and my initial post was my views of why.

 

[A Random User]

Dario,

Darth said that for the most part we do not have the skill set in America. He is correct! If 200-300 people can, then he is still right, because that 200-300 people would be the less part of all the people in America doing bonsai. By the way, I am not one of the hypothetical group of 200-300 people I arbitrarily created who can and I could not name 200-300 people in America that could do that and I'm not sure that they exist.

Bill Valvanis certainly is one who can, has and continues to create world class deciduous, evergreen, semi-evergreen and tropical (and any other group imaginable) trees.

Regards,
Martin

This is a rediculous statement, period.
Other than time and finding the right material...
These trees are very much designable.

 

[A Random User]

Here is a link that will make everything make sense and bring us to reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GYTT9j6EFQ

Some of you have probably seen this video. I encourage you to watch the whole video. Paying attention to each tree show.

These are the teachers, creators and now, the competition. It is a battle not for winning or a victory, but a battle for us and other countries to learn as much as possible from the Japanese.

If groups continuously rebel, disagree and somehow view tradition as a prison. Us bonsai will never progress beyond where it is. So while people are talking about natural looking trees, talking about how they don't prefer pads on trees or talking about avoiding the triangle. The Japanese just do and they do according to the tree..deciduous style like decidious, conifers like conifers. However, if an individual tree seems to be better as a looser intepretation of nature, so be it.

After watching this video. It is blantantly obvious who is the leader in bonsai. Why, some could say because they created the art. However, I believe it is because they continue to just do. Their trees have reached a point where they are almost omnipotent. If this level is ever to be neared by US. It is time to take the rebel hat off, and learn the fact that there is so much to learn.

p.s. The name Ryan Neil comes up quite often now a days. He has some amazing trees. People view them as master pieces. I believe it has been said some of his bonsai are some of the best in the US....Well, he studied with Kimura in Japan for 5 years. Learned Kimura's way and was also deeply involved with Japanese tradition and bonsai ideologies. Kimura taught him and he brought it back here. There you go..Just learned and did. Ryans work is incredibly similar, almost identical in many ways to Kimuras work.

Rob

And what make you think that we here in America, just don't do, as well ???
By the way... haven't we here in America been studying what the Japanese
have been doing for years ??? This is why our trees have looked like they
have for so many years...

See, I personally think the opposite...

I think we as artist have for years just been learning... and now we are little
by little starting to just do...

We are searching for our own identity... and to do this one needs to try new
things and experiment... some will work, some not so much.
But, continuing to study Japanese Bonsai, at least in my opinion, only
creates bad knock-offs.

Just My 120 cents...

 

[A Random User]

The original point of the thread was doing things faster and not following "the rules" to speed things up: Sawgrass wrote, "And most importantly...It also allows for one to often have an almost instant bonsai with a very finished look, Even though it maybe the tree's first styling."
There was also a comment on believing that the pictured deciduous specimens needed "A LOT" of thinning out after being masterfully created. Then a comment on how those trees could be so commonplace here it's just that's not what we Americans want. Now we are at the number 200-300 Americans can produce these trees. After reading this, I thought I immediately needed to check ebay and buy some since certainly this many people producing this level of tree would drive the supply up and the price down. Couldn't find any though. You are right though, that most do not put forth the effort to learn the right technique, but would rather find a shortcut for immediate gratification. This ideology produces poor bonsai.

You couldn't be any further from the truth...
Next time "Actually" read what I posted.
Thanks

 

[Martin Sweeney]

sawgrass,

We will have to disagree then. Time and the right material are not all that is needed.

I have not seen that many deciduous trees in America that look like the 2 trees you posted. Those I have seen are in pictures from the collections of the big name artists like Bill Valvanis.

Are trees like the 2 you posted possible in the future? Sure. Are there lots of people doing bonsai in America right now with trees they developed like the 2 you posted? Not buying them from the big name artists and slowly watching them fade (see the Greatest American Bonsai thread). I would very much like to be wrong.

Regards,
Martin

 

[A Random User]

What exactly this thread was or is supposed to be about remains a question. The term progressing bonsai in America could be taken as progressing the concept of an American Bonsai. you wrote:

You are correct... The whole point of this thread was to discuss progressing
American Bonsai, or the Progression of it.

My initial thread post was just my oppions of some of the things
that I believe have changed...

Some how some folks here got the idea that I was talking about
how we can all make fast Bonsai. This is not the case.
You have various refrences to Grahmn and his dumpster dive
Bonsai and how he in his first styling has almost a finished looking
tree.
This does not however mean his tree is done... Far from it, he has just
laid the bones... He will now have to spend years refining and building
the tree. The style is there though.

 

[A Random User]

sawgrass,

We will have to disagree then. Time and the right material are not all that is needed.

I have not seen that many deciduous trees in America that look like the 2 trees you posted. Those I have seen are in pictures from the collections of the big name artists like Bill Valvanis.

Are trees like the 2 you posted possible in the future? Sure. Are there lots of people doing bonsai in America right now with trees they developed like the 2 you posted? Not buying them from the big name artists and slowly watching them fade (see the Greatest American Bonsai thread). I would very much like to be wrong.

Regards,
Martin

Now you know what kind of Bonsai to start Next !!!
Why not be one of the first ???

 

[october]

Now see Rob, I agree with this...
By the way weren't you the one whoposted a thread a while back was asking
about the bonsai of today, and the almost instant Bonsai ???

This thread and my initial post was my views of why.

Yes, the thread I posted a while back was in regards to how it seems that much of the material being worked on today by master artists are all beautful yamadori with amazing potential. Nothing wrong with that and that is great and expected. I was just recalling how about 10 plus years ago, it seemed that lesser quality stock was used more often. It was not a positive or negative issue or anything that required an opinion. It was just something I seemed to notice.

I can only explain it by 10 plus years ago, I would estimate that maybe 60% was top notch material and the rest of the work was on young or sub par material. Today, I would say that it is about 90 top notch material and barely 10 percent stock that is considered long term or very problematic.

Rob