Progression of One of My Bald Cypress

Mellow Mullet

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Well I did find one "showing her knees" thread. I agree with what what mullet said in the thread , it's a genetic trait some show more than others. Like corky branches and bark on certain elms.

Also that's a large container in that thread. It's a cement tub or some thing similar.

And scale would be weird in a bonsai pot.

They can grow knees...

Actually, it is planted in a bonsai pot. I think it is 24 inches long, I can measure it tomorrow when I visit after church (and take some new pictures). The pot is sitting in a regular sized concrete mixing tub form Home Depot. The tree stays in the tub of water most of the year.

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Here is my clump with a small knee, just started developing, and a couple more that have been on it longer:


DSC00739-1.jpg DSC00740-1.jpg DSC00746-1.jpg
 

LanceMac10

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Was hoping Mullet would post those photos!!! Wow!!! High fives to you and your Pop!!

Pretty amazing!!:cool:
 

Mellow Mullet

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Was hoping Mullet would post those photos!!! Wow!!! High fives to you and your Pop!!

Pretty amazing!!:cool:

I did not go to my dad's today after church. I had to work on my car instead. Electric fans went out, had to replace them. I will, however; go by on day this week and take some and post a picture of the one I have growing on the clump it has grown about an inch this summer.

John
 

DougB

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Thanks Mellow Mullet, and JohnG. I have heard a variety of soils being used. I am curious and a question for both of you: what soil do you use when you keep them in water most of the year and what soil do you keep them in when they are never placed in water?

Thanks guys.
 

johng

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Thanks Mellow Mullet, and JohnG. I have heard a variety of soils being used. I am curious and a question for both of you: what soil do you use when you keep them in water most of the year and what soil do you keep them in when they are never placed in water?

Thanks guys.

I am not sure it matters... I use high quality potting soil for newly collected trees and switch over to more typical bonsai soil when they get moved into a bonsai container. Although I once was a proponent of keeping them in water as much as possible, I am learning that there are limited benefits to that...it works best when the volume of water is small enough to completely evaporate on a nearly daily basis...too much water doesn't seem to add anything of value in my estimations. See the photo above of John's Dad's tree... the pot nearly completely fills the mortar container...thus minimizing the amount of water.
 

rockm

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Ditto on what John said on soil and submersion. Keeping this species in water can actually slow it down in the summer as the water heats up during the day. Leaving it a tub of hot water at night adds the problem. The more water, the hotter the roots stay at night. I switched to using an extremely water retentive soil mix, instead of keeping the tree in a container of water all summer. And don't count on knees. They're rare and if you try to grow them on purpose you will be forever disappointed. If you get them consider yourself lucky.
 

rockm

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Ditto on what John said on soil and submersion. Keeping this species in water can actually slow it down in the summer as the water heats up during the day. Leaving it a tub of hot water at night adds the problem. The more water, the hotter the roots stay at night-just physics. I switched to using an extremely water retentive soil mix, instead of keeping the tree in a container of water all summer. And don't count on knees. They're rare and if you try to grow them on purpose you will be forever disappointed. If you get them consider yourself lucky.
 

Mellow Mullet

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Ditto on what John said on soil and submersion. Keeping this species in water can actually slow it down in the summer as the water heats up during the day. Leaving it a tub of hot water at night adds the problem. The more water, the hotter the roots stay at night. I switched to using an extremely water retentive soil mix, instead of keeping the tree in a container of water all summer. And don't count on knees. They're rare and if you try to grow them on purpose you will be forever disappointed. If you get them consider yourself lucky.

Interesting, but I have to disagree. I don't think that the water actually stays hot or even that warm at night, probably a degree or two difference from the ambient air temperature. I have stuck my hand into the tub in the heat of the day and while the water was warm, it was not any warmer than a pot would be sitting in the sun, in fact it was probably cooler. I also flush fresh water through the tub each day when I water the other trees to keep it from getting too stagnet and funky. I tried it one season without the tubs after reading all of the comments about growing them in water and while the trees lived and grew some, they did not do as well as they did in the water. My tree in this thread has been trimmed three times already, I could have gotten a fourth in but did not have time. I have had some smaller trees double in size growing in water. During the summer these trees drink so much water it is hard to keep them wet unless you can water twice a day, I can't due to my work schedule. The one pictured above that belongs to my dad has been in water all of its life, except in the winter.

You are right about the knees, I, and my dad, didn't do anything to try to grow them, they just happened.

John
 

rockm

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Well, it boils down to simple physics. Water holds onto heat more efficiently than air. Hot water holds less oxygen than cold water. A pan of water, left in the sun will absorb more heat than a pot left exposed to air. It can take longer to heat up, but retains that heat longer (it also takes longer to cool down). That means a string of hot days in the summer can result in hot water, even if you exchange it every so often. And FWIW, BC roots in nature aren't sitting in hot stagnant swamp water. They are buried under a few feet of mud that keeps them a lot cooler than they will be in a standing tub of water.
http://www.fofweb.com/Electronic_Images/Onfiles/FOFSE-041.pdf
http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/wa...r-absorb-heat-better-than-most-substances.htm

Another thing to think about--hotter, or warmer, water hold less oxygen than water that is colder.
http://www.ask.com/science/cold-water-hold-oxygen-warm-water-ebea012c9d2e9ac7
That may not make a huge difference at first, but again, over time in a hot summer, it can.

I stopped submerging my BC a decade ago after being told all of this by BC growers. Ask any of the "name" BC people if they're still growing in water filled tubs, or have stopped in favor of more water retentive soil mixes. If you have to leave them all day without being able to water, submerge only the bottom couple of inches of the container...not the entire thing.
 

Mellow Mullet

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Well, it boils down to simple physics. Water holds onto heat more efficiently than air. Hot water holds less oxygen than cold water. A pan of water, left in the sun will absorb more heat than a pot left exposed to air. It can take longer to heat up, but retains that heat longer (it also takes longer to cool down). That means a string of hot days in the summer can result in hot water, even if you exchange it every so often. And FWIW, BC roots in nature aren't sitting in hot stagnant swamp water. They are buried under a few feet of mud that keeps them a lot cooler than they will be in a standing tub of water.
http://www.fofweb.com/Electronic_Images/Onfiles/FOFSE-041.pdf
http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/wa...r-absorb-heat-better-than-most-substances.htm

Another thing to think about--hotter, or warmer, water hold less oxygen than water that is colder.
http://www.ask.com/science/cold-water-hold-oxygen-warm-water-ebea012c9d2e9ac7
That may not make a huge difference at first, but again, over time in a hot summer, it can.

I stopped submerging my BC a decade ago after being told all of this by BC growers. Ask any of the "name" BC people if they're still growing in water filled tubs, or have stopped in favor of more water retentive soil mixes. If you have to leave them all day without being able to water, submerge only the bottom couple of inches of the container...not the entire thing.


Wow! Didn't really want to get in a pissing match on thermodynamics and water or debate whether it is good to submerge a tree or not; just wanted to show off my trees. I did not say you were wrong, but just that I just disagreed with what you said. Anyhow, I still disagree. The first two references do explain that water can hold heat longer, especially if it is compared to potting soil in a styrofoam cup, but it also explains why it doesn't heat up quickly in a tub that you have your cypress in, it takes a lot of energy just to raise the temperature of water. So half a day in the sun is not gonna get hot enough to cause any damage. I know a lot about chemistry and heat transfer, I work in a lab. Some of the analysis that we perform involve heat transfer. But anyway, it does not matter, submerging in a tub of water works for me, your's and other's milage may vary.

"A pan of water, left in the sun will absorb more heat than a pot left exposed to air." LOL, really? I hypothesize that most anything left in the sun will absorb more heat than if just exposed to the air. Maybe in your case it is because a pan is shallower than most pots, I don't know.

I also mentioned above that the water gets no hotter than a pot that is sitting if full sun. In fact, it is probably cooler. A dark colered pot (which contains the roots of your tree) in full sun will be quite hot after just an hour, not so for the volume of water I have in the tub.

For what it's worth, the tree is not completely under water, the water level is only up to an inch or so below the rim. As for the oxygen-stagnant thing, I did say that I flushed the tubs with fresh water to keep it from getting skunky. Also, in my area there are places where BC area growing, quite well, in "hot" (hot is a subjective term) water. And if the water is only a couple of feet deep and hot, the mud below it is pretty warm, too. Spent many a day in my youth roaming around creeks and swamps.

I don't really know what it takes to be a "named" BC person nor do I care to be one, I just want to grow some bonsai. I guess if I was really into the you tube thing and blogging I could make a bunch of videos, write a bunch of articles, get a following; maybe then I would be "named." ------Not intended to be a jab at you, johng, YOU ROCK! I have learned a lot from your offerings.

Thanks for the lesson on the thermal properties of water and an idea for my tenth grader's science project.

John
 

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I bow to your superior thermodynamic properties then. Keep on doing what you're doing
 

Mellow Mullet

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I bow to your superior thermodynamic properties then. Keep on doing what you're doing

After re-reading my response, I feel that I owe you, Rockm, an apology. While we disagree with you on putting them in water, I should have just left it at that. I should not have "fed the monster". Anyway, sorry for being an ass. Oh, I was serious about the science project, I think we can develop it into a good working hypoyhesis.

John
 

rockm

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After re-reading my response, I feel that I owe you, Rockm, an apology. While we disagree with you on putting them in water, I should have just left it at that. I should not have "fed the monster". Anyway, sorry for being an ass. Oh, I was serious about the science project, I think we can develop it into a good working hypoyhesis.

John
FWIW, I wasn't trying to be a snob. I was simply pointing out that you're pretty much re-inventing the wheel. "Named" is another word basically for "long-time noted grower" i.e. Gary Marchal, Guy Guidry etc. Gary and a few others that have been at this for 20 or more years don't put their trees in water.

It's also worth noting that BC don't grow in water because they prefer it. They grow in it because they CAN. In growing in submerged conditions, BC exploit a niche that other plants can't. It doesn't mean that niche is the optimal place for them. There are a number of studies (done for logging companies) that show BC grows best in seasonally flooded soil (sites are mostly flooded in the fall) and with soils that drain a bit...Found this statement in a University of Florida paper particularly interesting. I've seen similar statements in other research
"During the growing season, the soils should be inundated or saturated, with the water table close to the ground surface. Too much water is also detrimental to cypress growth. Cypress trees tolerate short periods of deep flooding, particularly during the winter, but cypress seedlings usually cannot withstand more than a month of total submergence (Williston et al 1980)"

I go for "saturated" using highly moisture retentive soil, which would get away from the negative effects of too much water and not enough drainage.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fr152
 

0soyoung

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Gary Marchal, Guy Guidry etc. Gary and a few others that have been at this for 20 or more years don't put their trees in water.
Yes, but temporary root anoxia is necessary if you want to grow knees. John and his Dad have shown how easily this can be done. The knees are wood, so once they've formed they are a 'permanent' feature - they won't go away unless you cut them off. Use conventional bansai horticulture if you don't want knees or you've got all the knees you want.

BTW, thanks John.
 
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johng

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Yes, but temporary root anoxia is necessary if you want to grow knees. John and his Dad have shown how easily this can be done. The knees are wood, so once they've formed they are a 'permanent' feature - they won't go away unless you cut them off. Use conventional bansai horticulture if you don't want knees or you've got all the knees you want.

BTW, thanks John.

Perhaps...but in my anecdotal experience there is trade off between submerging the root mass long term in the hopes that your tree will produce knees and with the health and vigor of the tree. There is absolutely no guarantee that a submerged tree will develop knees, and if it does, it is a timeline segmented by decades to get the kind of results shown. If it were easy, you would see many more examples of trees developing knees in containers...and there just aren't that many out there of which I am aware. I am pretty sure I remember John's dad reporting that tree with the really nice knees had been in water for nearly 20 years and that was at least 5-7 years ago that I read that... Do you know John??

One thing I did notice when I was looking into developing knees was that they seem to have a growth spurt in late summer(easy to notice as the old bark splits and new fresh bark is exposed...see John's last photo...which makes me wonder if submerging only for that period of time would be beneficial to knee growth and not detrimental to overall growth?? John...have you ever noted what time of the year your knees grow??

Regardless...I have chosen to opt for healthy vigorous trees and not growing knees. I decided years ago to collect trees with knees and not to worry about trying to grow knees. Now I just need to stop selling all the ones I collect with knees:)


BTW...John...isn't your father's name John Day?? Maybe I am confused?? if it is, the pics I have seen of his trees are outstanding!!

John
 
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