Progression: RMJ Bolt

Messages
246
Reaction score
231
Location
Maryland
USDA Zone
7a
Would you consider graft attempting it again? 😀

Personal thoughts on rmj.

1) There are definitely preferred micro-climates where rmj grows hardier with healthier and more compact foliage. I am based in LA county, rmj here can grow healthy but its finicky and the slightest mishap or lack of vigor results in floppy, juvenile, and weak growth. I don't know your climate area enough, but I would say first is to evaluate how healthy you can cultivate rmj foliage there.

2) A way sometimes to evaluate very old bonsai is age in cultivation. This is not necessarily the physical age of the tree, but the number of years successfully cultivated as bonsai. Having apprenticed in Japan, and getting many opportunities to see old trees the difference in person is night and day between a tree with just a good aesthetic and one old as bonsai. The idea is that say (arbitrarily) for a 20 year window, you want work over that time period to appreciate and be built upon previous work. But if your tree requires major reworking every few years, health related, or by nature of growth habit even if you work on your tree for 20 years its age in cultivation will forever be 3 years old. Case in point, there is no maturity of the design since 2021 and if anything as you already mentioned had set backs related to health.

Rmj naturally is a very lacy, floppy foliage. It is not very turgid and is a slow process to develop structure on, especially if the tree is always being styled with very weak skinny branches. Short of a very clean design and great health, more often than not rmj require major reworking every few years which resets the age in cultivation calendar as opposed to building upon previous work. I am sure Bjorn understands this, which is why he chose to graft the tree.

Success rate of your scions will relate to health of understock (the rmj) and then your donor (scion, chinensis). I've observed the same issue where an rmj I took over from a local professional was graft attempted and had the majority of them fail. Issue was that the tree was just not strong enough. It took me a full year to rebuild strength to a state of vigor (from an almost dead tree) and I grafted this year--seems like all will take.

I did watch Bjorn's video before and he wrote off the failed attempts as a more poetic sign of retaining the native foliage. But my personal feelings are that bonsai is already so far removed from its natural state that unless the native foliage is very impactfully conveying a certain aesthetic while being cultivatable for bonsai trying to keep it for the sake of a natural look feels hypocritical. Its people who assign aesthetic and feelings to nature, while in the natural environment trees are only concerned with survival and the easiest accessible way to grow.

I believe there is a fine line between representation in nature and then cultivating the human element on our trees. Just as yamadori accrues age and character in nature from harsh environment and slow growth rates, in a sense we can impose our own history of time on the tree. Trees that successfully carry this, in part with the natural character, are usually shoe in show winners are major exhibitions.

I think situationally native foliage can look great, but I think this is not one of those cases and if you can grow the tree to a state of great health then graft it, this tree will have a brighter future as bonsai.
Well put, and highly logical.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
Are J Cross pots always that hefty for their size? I like the style of some of his pots, but that feels absurd, then you've got to add the weight of the tree, soil, and water
They unfortunately are hefty in comparison to other containers similarly sized. And the other small detail about them are how small the actual interior dimensions are. There were a couple that were the perfect pairing for trees I had but the holding capacity made it impossible to fit the proportionate sized tree unless the rootball was exceptionally small.
 

Wood

Shohin
Messages
414
Reaction score
1,002
Location
Alexandria, VA
USDA Zone
7a
That's unfortunate. Overly heavy and incredibly small planting space makes it feel more like an art object than functional pot. I'm not a super talented ceramic artist, but that feels kinda clumsy
 

justBonsai

Omono
Messages
1,442
Reaction score
2,595
Location
Arcadia, CA
The Jcross pots look pretty nice. I think paired well it looks cool. An unrelated comment about weight though, are old school practioners who plant their trees in pure DG. I hate that and it makes pots so damn heavy.

If you don't plan on moving the tree much or will use equipment everytime you do I guess its fine though. I agree in that if they can retain the same aesthetic and functionality, but as a lighter pot it will be all around superior and show more attention to detail from the ceramicist.
 

Japonicus

Masterpiece
Messages
4,967
Reaction score
7,794
Location
Western West Virginia AHS heat zone 6
USDA Zone
6b
Fantastic tree Izzy. I could only dream of having such a nice piece in my possession.
However, I am even more jealous of the support group you have behind you.
Sorry to hear about the back branch and the pot damage.
Having been in delivery for 37+ years, I know 1st hand how this damage occurs.
I remember one Christmas, NBC Nightly news posted that pkgs on the belt at FedEx
have to be packaged well enough to survive a 30 inch drop from one belt to another.
Then on my workroom floor I see packages thrown as much as 15 feet from clerk to
a hamper whether it is empty or buffered all morning long while the clerks sort pkgs off the pallets.
Our hazmat area remains flooded with busted liquid containers, mostly Amazons fault for
improper packaging. I would be more inclined to think your package was dropped and landed
on itself. Best regards in your journey with this piece. BTW, after this pic was taken,
the tree in my avatar is now in the same pot, maybe smaller, that yours is currently in.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
How much does a tree like that set one back?
What I’ve learned is there’s quite a few factors that changes prices for trees so whenever I’m discussing prices, I tend to list out factors that I believe affected the price.

For Bjorn’s RMJ, I believe the reset to initial styling dropped the price of the tree. It basically went back to an early part of its development after the scions failed and he needed to restyle the tree. The price would have been much higher had it been in the pre Nationals form, in my opinion. In addition, I also think Bjorn was ready to let the tree go. I paid somewhere in the 20s for the tree and would have likely had to pay in the 30s if it was pre Nationals.
 
Messages
246
Reaction score
231
Location
Maryland
USDA Zone
7a
What I’ve learned is there’s quite a few factors that changes prices for trees so whenever I’m discussing prices, I tend to list out factors that I believe affected the price.

For Bjorn’s RMJ, I believe the reset to initial styling dropped the price of the tree. It basically went back to an early part of its development after the scions failed and he needed to restyle the tree. The price would have been much higher had it been in the pre Nationals form, in my opinion. In addition, I also think Bjorn was ready to let the tree go. I paid somewhere in the 20s for the tree and would have likely had to pay in the 30s if it was pre Nationals.
That's pretty wild, but completely within reason if that is what brings you joy. Enjoy your time with it, we only live once (on this planet).
 

justBonsai

Omono
Messages
1,442
Reaction score
2,595
Location
Arcadia, CA
What I’ve learned is there’s quite a few factors that changes prices for trees so whenever I’m discussing prices, I tend to list out factors that I believe affected the price.

For Bjorn’s RMJ, I believe the reset to initial styling dropped the price of the tree. It basically went back to an early part of its development after the scions failed and he needed to restyle the tree. The price would have been much higher had it been in the pre Nationals form, in my opinion. In addition, I also think Bjorn was ready to let the tree go. I paid somewhere in the 20s for the tree and would have likely had to pay in the 30s if it was pre Nationals.
It's generous to share what you bought your tree for--of course no one is entitled to know how you spend your money and there is no obligation to share.

Generally pricing on bonsai can be complicated, but the simplest way to look at it, is that you are buying time. Trees take time to cultivate and either you do it yourself or you buy the time someone else spent on it. I usually evaluate the raw base value of the material (since this is yamadori there is intrinsic value, and time investment in collection/after-care process), time cultivated as bonsai, technicality of work, and lastly completeness of package (think composition, style, pot pairing). Bjorn is a reputable and skilled professional so that adds some value as well.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
It's generous to share what you bought your tree for--of course no one is entitled to know how you spend your money and there is no obligation to share.

Generally pricing on bonsai can be complicated, but the simplest way to look at it, is that you are buying time. Trees take time to cultivate and either you do it yourself or you buy the time someone else spent on it. I usually evaluate the raw base value of the material (since this is yamadori there is intrinsic value, and time investment in collection/after-care process), time cultivated as bonsai, technicality of work, and lastly completeness of package (think composition, style, pot pairing). Bjorn is a reputable and skilled professional so that adds some value as well.
I agree with your assessment. I've bought about a dozen or so of Ryan's trees, handful of Bjorn's, 6 or so of Todd's trees and more than a dozen of raw yamadori. Based on that small sample size, there is definitely a pattern/equation to the valuation. Ultimately there's a lot of subjectivity to each component(intrinsic value of tree, time in training, provenance, artists involved, etc.) and I see more relativity more so than actual objective value. Personally I've never negotiated on the prices (as one of the main objectives of my collection is to support and be a patron to American bonsai professionals) but there is absolutely a "reasonable market value" that one can analyze.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
Small update: The tree is bursting out with new growth and looking extremely healthy. However, the branch that was lost has another similar sized branch originating from the same secondary branch, and it's showing some weakness. There's little new growth but it's obvious that it's weaker compared to every other part of the tree. Definitely something to keep an eye on.

Overall tree growing:


tempImage92zmJq.png

Strong growth on all parts of the tree:
tempImageIy5n2z.png


Some early weakness on one branch:
tempImagegq50Fq.png
 

Attachments

  • tempImage2vCAiJ.png
    tempImage2vCAiJ.png
    703.2 KB · Views: 18
  • tempImagehiVXoz.png
    tempImagehiVXoz.png
    660.2 KB · Views: 18

chicago1980

Omono
Messages
1,407
Reaction score
2,668
Hopefully with time and sun, the tree can recover
 

Perplexody

Shohin
Messages
251
Reaction score
497
Location
Willkes-barre Pennsylvania United States
USDA Zone
5
Small update: The tree is bursting out with new growth and looking extremely healthy. However, the branch that was lost has another similar sized branch originating from the same secondary branch, and it's showing some weakness. There's little new growth but it's obvious that it's weaker compared to every other part of the tree. Definitely something to keep an eye on.

Overall tree growing:


View attachment 489194

Strong growth on all parts of the tree:
View attachment 489197


Some early weakness on one branch:
View attachment 489195
Could still be feeling the effects of the most recent styling and the transportation to your garden. I'm sure it'll be absolutely fine under your care
 

bwaynef

Masterpiece
Messages
2,015
Reaction score
2,405
Location
Clemson SC
USDA Zone
8a
I know there's more going on, and you've received help from much better than myself, ...and I have no experience with the day-to-day care of such a refined piece, ...but when I want to locally increase the strength of certain branches I wire the tips upward. That might be something you consider.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
I know there's more going on, and you've received help from much better than myself, ...and I have no experience with the day-to-day care of such a refined piece, ...but when I want to locally increase the strength of certain branches I wire the tips upward. That might be something you consider.
Yep that was one of the strategies I employed this spring for that particular branch since it originated from the same secondary branch. Was hoping for better progress since every other branch on the tree is putting in strong growth. It’s by no means wilting but there’s a very remarkable contrast between this particular branch and the rest. Just going to keep a closer eye on it.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
Well the second weak branch didn’t make it either. Both branches were definitely coming from the same area so my best guess is the same vein was compromised somehow. Either way, I removed it and repositioned some branches to fill the gap. The tree has grown strong this spring and continues to put in shoots. A prune after new growth hardens will allow me to make adjustments to fully set the styling Bjorn had made last year. If this keeps up, a report next spring definitely is doable.

Weakened branch(before being removed)
F7CEEA66-BF4B-4F24-A3C7-1F2BEB7D4628.jpeg

Post branch removal and adjustment
AB01D582-0C3D-4CA7-BEA1-D3B04F2EEEAE.jpeg

The rest of the tree
C0FA2CFF-261C-48ED-A77A-E7CBB96327EA.jpeg
 

nuttiest

Omono
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
856
Location
fl
USDA Zone
10
Why restyle just like Bjorn had it? To pay homage to the previous owner? The broken branches could be an opportunity for a makeover. Bring back a little what it looked like when collected, its apex strong above the ribbon, maybe in a nice looonger pot, what excitement.
Nothing wrong with his style, a completely iconic stage, but maybe they aren't meant to stay the same.
 

IzzyG

Shohin
Messages
385
Reaction score
2,325
Location
Milwaukee, WI
USDA Zone
5b
Why restyle just like Bjorn had it? To pay homage to the previous owner? The broken branches could be an opportunity for a makeover. Bring back a little what it looked like when collected, its apex strong above the ribbon, maybe in a nice looonger pot, what excitement.
Nothing wrong with his style, a completely iconic stage, but maybe they aren't meant to stay the same.

The broken branches in the back isn’t paramount to the overall structure that Bjorn had set last year. And with all of the stresses it had the last year or so(plus the question of the tree’s stability in the container), I’m allowing it to recover without major work this year. After the new growth hardens, itll mainly be thinning out any areas that aren’t letting light in and making small adjustments to keep that same primary structure. Letting the shoots run will give it the best opportunity to back bud and also maximize new solar panels for energy positive state into spring ‘24. The next major work on the schedule is definitely a repot as I’d really like to reanchor the tree.
 
Top Bottom