Prunus Mume Propagation by Hardwood Cuttings During Early Winter - The Peter Adams Method

[R3x]

How would that help? What's the thinking behind this?

Couldn't find the idea behind but if you look for "etiolation rooting" in Google you'll find lots of sources on it - for example this one: https://www.nature.com/articles/1211002a0 Obviously mangos are propagated like this for example.
Also this one is interesting: http://www.hort.cornell.edu/uhi/research/articles/IntPlantProp35.pdf Proposes that combined with banding it even improves rooting rates. Banding seems to be what's done after step 3. In the document they propose to band the base of the shoots after the shading is removed to keep the shoot in etiolated state. So the leaves get green again but the base remains in a state that improves rooting rates.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

How would that help? What's the thinking behind this?

Well, the most common way of propagation by cutting is to insert the cutting into a substrate which etiolates the end from which you wants roots to emerge. If you understand how that works, etiolation does not require the stretch of the imagination that your questions might imply.

There is an incredible amount of information available online about this from the 1930's to today, published by experts. I'm not expert, and summarizing for you something that has already been so well summarized so often would add an unnecessary node in the transmission. I recommend Google

Most research points back to Garder's seminal work: Gardner, F. E. 1937. etiolation as a method of rooting apple variety stem cuttings. Proceedings of the American Society for Hoticultural Science 34: 323-329

A summary of the process (but not the reasoning) can be found in chapter 2 of the book that everyone with any interest in propagation should own: Diir and Heuser's The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation: From Seed to Tissue Culture, Second Edition: Dirr, Michael A., Heuser Jr., Charles W.: 9781604690040: Books - Amazon.ca

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation: From Seed to Tissue Culture, Second Edition: Dirr, Michael A., Heuser Jr., Charles W.: 9781604690040: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

 

[0soyoung]

Well, the most common way of propagation by cutting is to insert the cutting into a substrate which etiolates the end from which you wants roots to emerge. If you understand how that works, etiolation does not require the stretch of the imagination that your questions might imply.

There is an incredible amount of information available online about this from the 1930's to today, published by experts. I'm not expert, and summarizing for you something that has already been so well summarized so often would add an unnecessary node in the transmission. I recommend Google

Most research points back to Garder's seminal work: Gardner, F. E. 1937. etiolation as a method of rooting apple variety stem cuttings. Proceedings of the American Society for Hoticultural Science 34: 323-329

A summary of the process (but not the reasoning) can be found in chapter 2 of the book that everyone with any interest in propagation should own: Diir and Heuser's The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation: From Seed to Tissue Culture, Second Edition: Dirr, Michael A., Heuser Jr., Charles W.: 9781604690040: Books - Amazon.ca

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation: From Seed to Tissue Culture, Second Edition: Dirr, Michael A., Heuser Jr., Charles W.: 9781604690040: Books - Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

It is fact, but there must be some interesting physiology involved, as it does seem counter-intuitive.

That is, we/I say we need a leaf to root a cutting so that we get carbohydrates to support root growth. Etoliated leaves don't have chlorophyll.

We also know that shaded leaves tend to get dropped. My simple-minded thinking is that this is because shaded leaves don't produce enough auxin (because of the lack of sunlight). --> Apparently they do (so what is the mechanism that triggers the ethylene production that leads to leaf drop that doesn't occur with etoliation???? )

So, how are etoliated leaves (and/or buds) different from shaded leaves??? And, possibly the also shaded axillary buds and shading of the associated stem ???

 

[Forsoothe!]

Thinking out loud, perhaps the shaded portions of stem are unable to complete the transition from undifferentiated cells to stem/leaf bearing cells? The cells that are underground transition to roots, and perhaps the key to which way cells evolve is the presence or lack of light? Does this make any sense? But plants grown in hydroponics don't have "shaded" roots, right?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

perhaps the shaded portions of stem are unable to complete the transition from undifferentiated cells to stem/leaf bearing cells? The cells that are underground transition to roots, and perhaps the key to which way cells evolve is the presence or lack of light?

When I first read about this, my initial guess also resembled this. But etiolation seems to have more to do with delaying sclereid formation which forms a physical/mechanical barrier for root initiation.

But plants grown in hydroponics don't have "shaded" roots, right?

I think the important thing to keep in mind is that different plants behave differently, and while some work well in hydroponics, other would not. It's those tough ones like Fagus crenata, or in this case Prunus mume cultivars, where one might consider the relatively labor-intensive and time-consuming etiolation strategy--when all else fails.

 

[berzerkules]

When I first read about this, my initial guess also resembled this. But etiolation seems to have more to do with delaying sclereid formation which forms a physical/mechanical barrier for root initiation.

While you all were on the topic of etiolation and after reading the texts you linked I got side tracked and started to think about other ways to use this technique.

My mind went right to a local species, birch. They seem to like sending shoots from the base of the tree (right at ground level or below but not on the trunk)especially if they are damaged. So, I was thinking I might be able to use etiolation by blocking light to the portion of the tree I wanted shoots and the applying BAP instead of IBA. Then doing a hard prune or massive trunk chop. Anyways, thanks for the planting the seed of an idea, I'll plan experiments for spring.

Sorry for getting off topic. I'll see myself out now.

 

[Forsoothe!]

While you all were on the topic of etiolation and after reading the texts you linked I got side tracked and started to think about other ways to use this technique.

My mind went right to a local species, birch. They seem to like sending shoots from the base of the tree (right at ground level or below but not on the trunk)especially if they are damaged. So, I was thinking I might be able to use etiolation by blocking light to the portion of the tree I wanted shoots and the applying BAP instead of IBA. Then doing a hard prune or massive trunk chop. Anyways, thanks for the planting the seed of an idea, I'll plan experiments for spring.

Sorry for getting off topic. I'll see myself out now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the one thing that Birch does really poorly is respond to chops. ??

 

[River's Edge]

Cuttings of cultivars, wether during dormancy or during the growing season, turns out to be a misguided approach.

For primary purposes of resale. Not commercially viable on large scale for several reasons. Root differentiation takes longer than desired and thus rooted cuttings are not very stable for the first two years, which requires more care and attention than commercially practical.
It is no surprise that grafting is simpler and more cost effective in the nursery industry. that is why we have such difficulty finding certain maple cultivars on their own roots. It is more expedient and profitable to grow inexpensive rough root stock and graft on more valuable specific cultivar scions to turn a profit.

This is why many white pine are grafted rather than on their own roots, too difficult for some and not cost effective for the nursery industry focussed on volume and profit.
There is room for both approaches and definitely a demand for both products.

 

[Pitoon]

For primary purposes of resale. Not commercially viable on large scale for several reasons. Root differentiation takes longer than desired and thus rooted cuttings are not very stable for the first two years, which requires more care and attention than commercially practical.
It is no surprise that grafting is simpler and more cost effective in the nursery industry. that is why we have such difficulty finding certain maple cultivars on their own roots. It is more expedient and profitable to grow inexpensive rough root stock and graft on more valuable specific cultivar scions to turn a profit.

This is why many white pine are grafted rather than on their own roots, too difficult for some and not cost effective for the nursery industry focussed on volume and profit.
There is room for both approaches and definitely a demand for both products.

I am grafting onto three different Prunus rootstock to see which would be the best match for mume.

 

[River's Edge]

I am grafting onto three different Prunus rootstock to see which would be the best match for mume.

It will be interesting to find out other alternatives for commercial propagation. another important part of the discussion is the basic care and climatic variables that limit the success with Mume for most Bonsai enthusiasts. Simply it is one of the more difficult species to maintain healthy plants. In simple terms I consider them high maintenance, particularly in cooler damp conditions.
Once you find an alternative there will be the next step to determine the long term effectiveness of the grafted portions. This is a very real issue that is often not mentioned in the grafting world. Not just the aesthetics but the long term healthy functioning of the graft itself. What is the life expectancy of the graft, will it need replacement frequently to maintain the structure, function and usefulness of the intended purpose.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

For primary purposes of resale. Not commercially viable on large scale for several reasons. Root differentiation takes longer than desired and thus rooted cuttings are not very stable for the first two years, which requires more care and attention than commercially practical.
It is no surprise that grafting is simpler and more cost effective in the nursery industry. that is why we have such difficulty finding certain maple cultivars on their own roots. It is more expedient and profitable to grow inexpensive rough root stock and graft on more valuable specific cultivar scions to turn a profit.

This is why many white pine are grafted rather than on their own roots, too difficult for some and not cost effective for the nursery industry focussed on volume and profit.
There is room for both approaches and definitely a demand for both products.

Yes, the resale factor is a major argument for grafting Ume onto rootstock as done commercially for maples. But when grafting Ume for high-level bonsai, you would not typically graft them onto rootstock in the way that is commercially done for maples. Rather, you would graft them in one of the many alternative, and much more labour-intensive ways (some of which I've mentioned above), and so the argument about expedience simply doesn't apply if we are talking about grafting Ume destined to be high-level bonsai.

When it comes to bonsai I think there are only very few rare situations when you might really want a cultivar on its own roots where no alternative could do an equally good job -- and I would leave it up to you to provide the examples because I can't think of any

I am grafting onto three different Prunus rootstock to see which would be the best match for mume.

This book (the one I cited in post #158) says to use Ume cuttings or seedlings, preferably cuttings. They say that grafting onto Peach, or Plum is possible, but the plant suffers over time, as @River's Edge just mentioned as I was typing this

 

[River's Edge]

When it comes to bonsai I think there are only very few rare situations when you might really want a cultivar on its own roots where no alternative could do an equally good job

Not sure if you said what you wanted to say above?

The situation for me would be whenever the cultivar could be on its own roots. I do consider that more desirable for Bonsai.
If it created a combination that was equal in all ways aesthetically and improved in adaptability to other locations or growing conditions than that would definitely be a desirable characteristic. However, the susceptibility issues with mume are primarily with the flowers, fruit and foliage not the root stock, so that is a moot point. Unless we come back to the cost effectiveness and scale of production for commercial purposes.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Not sure if you said what you wanted to say above?

The situation for me would be whenever the cultivar could be on its own roots. I do consider that more desirable for Bonsai.
If it created a combination that was equal in all ways aesthetically and improved in adaptability to other locations or growing conditions than that would definitely be a desirable characteristic. However, the susceptibility issues with mume are primarily with the flowers, fruit and foliage not the root stock, so that is a moot point. Unless we come back to the cost effectiveness and scale of production for commercial purposes.

I meant to say exactly what I said. I think you skipped post #144 above, which is where I explained in more detail - I am trying to brief here rather than repeating.

There are many moments in an Ume's life when a cultivar can be grafted onto material destined for bonsai, and there are also many locations on the tree where this can be done. In Japan, this can happen decades into a tree's development. For example, while Bjorn was at Kouka-en they took a highly refined 90-year-old Ume and completely swapped its cultivar (and brought it back to Kokufu-level refinement in 5-6 years). Grafting low on young root stock is also common, and it is easily hidden with deadwood. Grafting anywhere onto the primary, secondary, or tertiary branches is also done. Notice that nowhere am I talking about grafting in the "commercially viable way" that it done on Japanese Maples, because I'm talking about what is done at good bonsai nurseries or by specialist bonsai Ume grafters, not garden centres.

Whether or not we are talking about cultivars, grafting is an integral part of developing Ume bonsai. It actually becomes essential on mature specimens, even if you're just taking scions and grafting them further back on the same plant (and you might need to do 20-50 of these in one shot if you are renovating an old ramified specimen). A vast majority of Ume bonsai in Japan start out as 'yardadori', and so as you would imagine such specimens often begin their life as bonsai with a series of grafts (consider esp. the 7th image here).

If we were talking Japanese Maples, I would agree with you (though there are many exceptions). I built a business that has been 75% based on Japanese Maple cutting production... But here we're talking Ume, not Maples, so all I am asking is that you supply photos that show a high-level Ume cultivar specimen that absolutely had to have been grown on its roots and could not have possibly been grafted. I can't find any! But here are my photos that show where grafts could be easily concealed (but I am not claiming that any of these trees were grafted, I am merely pointing out how grafts can be hidden within the paradigm of Ume aesthetics)

Edit: I also attached an image of some of my sources. The others are people who have worked with Ume bonsai for decades in Japan and beyond. I'm not making this up or giving you my opinion. I am sharing what I learned is done as a matter of fact. If anybody feels to need to innovate, I'd say go for it, but I think Ryan's question really lines things up here: 'What are you trying to achieve?'

 

[Pitoon]

It will be interesting to find out other alternatives for commercial propagation. another important part of the discussion is the basic care and climatic variables that limit the success with Mume for most Bonsai enthusiasts. Simply it is one of the more difficult species to maintain healthy plants. In simple terms I consider them high maintenance, particularly in cooler damp conditions.
Once you find an alternative there will be the next step to determine the long term effectiveness of the grafted portions. This is a very real issue that is often not mentioned in the grafting world. Not just the aesthetics but the long term healthy functioning of the graft itself. What is the life expectancy of the graft, will it need replacement frequently to maintain the structure, function and usefulness of the intended purpose.

Yes, you're correct on how will those grafts be say in 10-15-20 years from now......will they be healthy trees? I suppose that would be determined on the type of rootstock and method of grafting used and the location on where they are growing. The rootstock has a major role on the outcome of the tree. It can control grow rate and mature height as well as making the tree precociousness. Some are more resistant to nematodes, some don't throw suckers. Some can tolerate wetter substrates, some colder temps. The differences can go on and on. That's why I like the idea of being able to graft onto a specific rootstock that would best be suited for a particular locale. If one lives an area that is cooler or wetter a specific rootstock that can tolerate or thrive in those conditions could be used. Same goes for a location that is drier.

The question now is which species are compatible with mume? I have tested 3 separate species so far and it seems as all took. Only time can tell the outcome, but if no one does these types of experiments we will never know. The best scenario would be to graft back onto Prunus mume.....but if your location doesn't allow mume to thrive. An alternative would be to use a different rootstock if you still want to be able to keep/grow mume.

 

[River's Edge]

I meant to say exactly what I said. I think you skipped post #144 above, which is where I explained in more detail - I am trying to brief here rather than repeating.

There are many moments in an Ume's life when a cultivar can be grafted onto material destined for bonsai, and there are also many locations on the tree where this can be done. In Japan, this can happen decades into a tree's development. For example, while Bjorn was at Kouka-en they took a highly refined 90-year-old Ume and completely swapped its cultivar (and brought it back to Kokufu-level refinement in 5-6 years). Grafting low on young root stock is also common, and it is easily hidden with deadwood. Grafting anywhere onto the primary, secondary, or tertiary branches is also done. Notice that nowhere am I talking about grafting in the "commercially viable way" that it done on Japanese Maples, because I'm talking about what is done at good bonsai nurseries or by specialist bonsai Ume grafters, not garden centres.

Whether or not we are talking about cultivars, grafting is an integral part of developing Ume bonsai. It actually becomes essential on mature specimens, even if you're just taking scions and grafting them further back on the same plant (and you might need to do 20-50 of these in one shot if you are renovating an old ramified specimen). A vast majority of Ume bonsai in Japan start out as 'yardadori', and so as you would imagine such specimens often begin their life as bonsai with a series of grafts (consider esp. the 7th image here).

If we were talking Japanese Maples, I would agree with you (though there are many exceptions). I built a business that has been 75% based on Japanese Maple cutting production... But here we're talking Ume, not Maples, so all I am asking is that you supply photos that show a high-level Ume cultivar specimen that absolutely had to have been grown on its roots and could not have possibly been grafted. I can't find any! But here are my photos that show where grafts could be easily concealed (but I am not claiming that any of these trees were grafted, I am merely pointing out how grafts can be hidden within the paradigm of Ume aesthetics)

Edit: I also attached an image of some of my sources. The others are people who have worked with Ume bonsai for decades in Japan and beyond. I'm not making this up or giving you my opinion. I am sharing what I learned is done as a matter of fact. If anybody feels to need to innovate, I'd say go for it, but I think Ryan's question really lines things up here: 'What are you trying to achieve?'

Wishing you success in the direction you have chosen, I do think it suits your purposes!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Seems to me that the technology that is being pursued by @cmeg1 should be as commercially effective/cost-effective as grafting for those trees that do well on their own roots. ??

 

[River's Edge]

Seems to me that the technology that is being pursued by @cmeg1 should be as commercially effective/cost-effective as grafting for those trees that do well on their own roots. ??

And I find it encouraging that quite a few enthusiasts are actively working on improving propagation methods for Bonsai purposes. One of the challenges in bonsai is locating healthy stock for Bonsai purposes.

 

[berzerkules]

Seems to me that the technology that is being pursued by @cmeg1 should be as commercially effective/cost-effective as grafting for those trees that do well on their own roots. ??

It would make sense to see more hydro/aeroponic propagation of bonsai material in the future. Using well draining inorganic substrate is the norm and it's basically just a crude form of hydroponics. There is definitely room for improvement especially when considering its uses in commercial growing.

 

[Bonds Guy]

I’ve been anxiously waiting for the day I can try this peter adam’s hardwood propagation technique and I figured today would be a great day to do that. However, a few days ago I noticed the buds on my trees are swollen.

Kobai


Peggy Clarke


Rosemary Clarke (Won’t be taking cuttings from this)


Here’s some context: 3 weeks we had cold weather (near freezing at night) and the week following that we had some oddly warm weather where temperatures ranged from Mid 50s to High 60s. Last week started mildy warm and gradually got to that normal november cool.

Have any of you experienced this? Should I wait until the buds reduce swelling before taking cuttings? Or should I just leave them alone?

 

[Pitoon]

I’ve been anxiously waiting for the day I can try this peter adam’s hardwood propagation technique and I figured today would be a great day to do that. However, a few days ago I noticed the buds on my trees are swollen.

Kobai
View attachment 409539View attachment 409540View attachment 409541

Peggy Clarke
View attachment 409542

Rosemary Clarke (Won’t be taking cuttings from this)
View attachment 409543

Here’s some context: 3 weeks we had cold weather (near freezing at night) and the week following that we had some oddly warm weather where temperatures ranged from Mid 50s to High 60s. Last week started mildy warm and gradually got to that normal november cool.

Have any of you experienced this? Should I wait until the buds reduce swelling before taking cuttings? Or should I just leave them alone?

We've had some similar swings in temperature bouncing from the high 30's to the low 70's and everything in between. Buds are growing on my as well.