Questions regarding somethings mentioned at a bonsai workshop I attended

[eugenev2]

So I attended two bonsai workshops this weekend, the one was a "why we do bonsai" and the other one was an introduction to wiring and styling, these workshops where aimed at beginners.
Now the reason i'm posting here is because in both sessions the gentlemen facilitating the workshops said two things that where in my mind controversial and when I asked them about what they mentioned, they couldn't provide me with satisfactory responses. So I decided to provide there statements here and would like opinions on these matters.

1. "Repotting should be done yearly" When asked whether this was for trees in specific stages of development or perhaps species, I was told that the stage of development doesn't matter nor the species in other word, they report Junipers/Japanese black pines yearly, which seems to contradict more modern concepts of repotting only necessary.
2. "Fertilizing with commercial products are not good for bonsai as the nitrogen contents is too high, rather make use of something liker their 1:1:1 product". Yet again I asked why or if it is relevant for trees in a specific development phase (specifically in regards with a commercially available product which is technically a soil conditioner I use that is a fish emulsion combined with kelp which other bonsai artist have recommended as a supplement) as they indicated these are not applicable to bonsai and long story short I got the answer that I will get bigger leaves and long internodes.
This bit made sense, but the next part the gentleman indicated that the one tree raised on for example on 7:1:2 (10 years old) would take roughly 40 years to achieve the same internodes/ramification as the tree that they grew in 1:1:1 which was only 10 years old

So any ideas/opinions, are they correct? Have i misunderstood all i've read?

 

[leatherback]

THis does not make sense in any way.

There are hardly ANY trees that need repotting as frequently as annually. One repots because you do not get healthy development, or water does not percolate, or you see other issues that come from unhappy roots. Some of the best mature bonsai have not been repotted for decades.

You fertilize with a specific aim in mind. It certainly is not a blanket truth that you should use low concentration fertilizer. In fact, I do not have any 1:1:1 fertilizer, which would amount to cow manure I think. Most product have substantially higher fertilizer content.

I could imagine however that the two advices in parallel make sense: If you repot often, the tree does not slow down (Relavtive small containers full of roots are what signal the tree to reduce above-ground growth). Thus the need to keep fertilizer to a bare minimum.

 

[Potawatomi13]

No misunderstanding. Both comments all wet! Few Bonsai except fastest growing young trees repotted yearly AFAIK. Many including self use commercial/chemical fertilizers with excellent results for many years. And no Bonsai grower is "artist"!

 

[leatherback]

And no Bonsai grower is "artist"!

you clearly have never heard of Nick Lenz.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

How do their trees look?

 

[rockm]

When I had been doing bonsai for about three years, I began repotting a very nice korean hornbeam yearly. It died in the fifth year. Worn out from being overworked. I now tend to repot depending on when a tree actually needs it -- soil drains poorly, etc. Doing things on a set schedule you set up rarely works, as the tree is on its own schedule.

ANY fertilizer will work. Trees will take NPK where they can get it. It helps if you understand WHY you're fertilizing and HOW it works and HOW TO DO IT. Simply stating there is only ONE way to do it (and with a product you're selling) is silly.

As for bonsaiists not being artists, the falsity of that statement is self-evident.

 

[Paradox]

The only tree I ever repotted every year for a few is a trident maple that grows roots over a foot long in one year and fills the pot with them.

I agree with the statements about fertilizing with a goal in mind. You need to be more careful with highly developed trees because you don't want explosive growth. You want controlled growth so using a lower N fertilizer may be helpful. Trees don't use nutrients in a 1:1:1 ratio so that is a fallacy

 

[eugenev2]

How do their trees look?

From my limited experienced their trees looked fine, some actually looked good. But to be fair none of the trees I saw this weekend from them compared to some of the trees i've seen produced by the likes of you (Brian Van Fleet), Adair M, Walter Pall and some of the other highly skilled bonsai growers/artists, so i'm not sure whether this is related to skill difference or maintenance and care

 

[eugenev2]

THis does not make sense in any way.

There are hardly ANY trees that need repotting as frequently as annually. One repots because you do not get healthy development, or water does not percolate, or you see other issues that come from unhappy roots. Some of the best mature bonsai have not been repotted for decades.

You fertilize with a specific aim in mind. It certainly is not a blanket truth that you should use low concentration fertilizer. In fact, I do not have any 1:1:1 fertilizer, which would amount to cow manure I think. Most product have substantially higher fertilizer content.

I could imagine however that the two advices in parallel make sense: If you repot often, the tree does not slow down (Relavtive small containers full of roots are what signal the tree to reduce above-ground growth). Thus the need to keep fertilizer to a bare minimum.

Thanks good to know i'm not loosing my mind here. It's one of the cruxes i've found with my current approach to bonsai, researching and learning as much as possible from different sources (like the internet) sometimes leads you down the wrong paths.

Ps. Not often you get someone commenting on your post that you've stared at on a screen week after week. Enjoying your bonsai vids thoroughly, keep them coming.

 

[eugenev2]

And for everyone else I didn't directly reply to, thanks for the comments and advice, as always, they are insightful and helpful. It never ceases to amaze me that people with so much experience (and probably so many trees to take care of) spend the time to reply to beginners and not so beginners posts. Thanks again

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Repotting needs are based on many things - age of stock, stage of development, styling goals, etc. I would never suggest "every year" as a blanket rule. I might replant seedlings or small stock every year, but developed bonsai in final stages of refinement can go a long time without needing repotting. In fact, annual repotting might work against other goals like restraining growth, developing fine ramification, and maintaining small leaf size and short internodes.

Fertilizer is fertilizer. A tree will use what it needs, and the rest will rinse out of the soil. You have to be careful with stronger fertilizers with trees in small containers, because it is easy to over-apply and burn roots, but that is the fault of the application and not the fault of the fertilizer. Organic fertilizers are often preferred for bonsai for this very reason, because they are lower strength and the chance of damaging a tree is greatly reduced. However 4 grams of 1-1-1 fertilizer is the same as 1 gram of 4-4-4 fertilizer, all other things equal. There are many ways to fertilize a tree - and even times when you might want to use a fertilizer with low / minimal nitrogen. But for the most part nitrogen is nitrogen, potassium is potassium, etc. As long as they are provided in bio-available forms in adequate strength, that's all that matters.

 

[jandslegate]

you clearly have never heard of Nick Lenz.

Or Dan Robinson

 

[rockm]

Or Dan Robinson

Who NEVER repots anything for the most part.

 

[SeanS]

Yup, that’s our local bonsai scene for you (South Africa)…

 

[BillsBayou]

You could fertilize your trees using the horse crap they're giving away.

"Fertilizing with commercial products are not good for bonsai as the nitrogen contents is too high, rather make use of something liker their 1:1:1 product"

They're selling the fertilizer they're recommending? Are they saying that their fertilizer is the only one you should be using? I never take blanket advice on products when the advice is coming from the salesman.

I sell bonsai soil locally (I don't ship). Is my soil the best soil around? Get recommendations from people who have used my soil, not from me. I'll give you advice on soil blends that I use, but I never say mine is the best and certainly NEVER say you should only be using my soil.

When asked whether this was for trees in specific stages of development or perhaps species, I was told that the stage of development doesn't matter nor the species ...

You already know enough to ask intelligent questions. Stage of development is ALWAYS a driving element in any bonsai technique. Species is an even bigger element. Depending on the species and time of year it was collected, you might want to wait a few years before repotting. Some species make you choose between heavy styling and repotting within a year. Do both and the tree goes into decline.

Everyone who has great success with bonsai is having this success with their own techniques and calendars. Someone who keeps one tropical on their window sill can develop a fantastic bonsai. But their techniques will be vastly different than someone growing the same tree at their nursery business.

Always ask "Why?" That's the key.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

From my limited experienced their trees looked fine, some actually looked good. But to be fair none of the trees I saw this weekend from them compared to some of the trees i've seen produced by the likes of you (Brian Van Fleet), Adair M, Walter Pall and some of the other highly skilled bonsai growers/artists, so i'm not sure whether this is related to skill difference or maintenance and care

Skill and maintenance are important and each improves the other. I asked because if you’re following somebody’s direction closely, eventually your trees will start to look like theirs...for better or worse.

My response to the questions: the first statement is patently wrong. Some trees need annual repotting, most don’t, particularly junipers and pines. The second question is leaning wrong IMO, but has a lot to do with growth objectives and soil choice. People who use inorganic soil tend to use organic fert, and vv.

 

[Lorax7]

#1 is just nuts… not even worth discussing. Sounds like a great way to kill trees.
#2 The closest thing to this that I’ve heard from any credible bonsai person was the late Pauline Muth recommending against using synthetic fertilizers like Miracle Grow, on the grounds that the extreme growth they support leads plants to grow so quickly that they develop very thin cell walls and that makes them more susceptible to disease over the long term. However, that’s still a far cry away from the position that the guy in your workshop was taking. Pauline didn’t recommend anything as extreme as only using 1:1:1. She just said to use organic fertilizer, not synthetics.

 

[jandslegate]

#1 is just nuts… not even worth discussing. Sounds like a great way to kill trees.
#2 The closest thing to this that I’ve heard from any credible bonsai person was the late Pauline Muth recommending against using synthetic fertilizers like Miracle Grow, on the grounds that the extreme growth they support leads plants to grow so quickly that they develop very thin cell walls and that makes them more susceptible to disease over the long term. However, that’s still a far cry away from the position that the guy in your workshop was taking. Pauline didn’t recommend anything as extreme as only using 1:1:1. She just said to use organic fertilizer, not synt

#1 is just nuts… not even worth discussing. Sounds like a great way to kill trees.
#2 The closest thing to this that I’ve heard from any credible bonsai person was the late Pauline Muth recommending against using synthetic fertilizers like Miracle Grow, on the grounds that the extreme growth they support leads plants to grow so quickly that they develop very thin cell walls and that makes them more susceptible to disease over the long term. However, that’s still a far cry away from the position that the guy in your workshop was taking. Pauline didn’t recommend anything as extreme as only using 1:1:1. She just said to use organic fertilizer, not synthetics.

Am I missing something by adhering to the concept that ultimately NPK is NPK? I mean I know it can go deeper like macro and micro nutrients, micorrhiza etc. but isn't the actual NPK what it really comes down to. Aside from, I suppose, the time of release in granulated ferts determining dosage. I'm almost afraid to post this question, lol.

 

[Lorax7]

Am I missing something by adhering to the concept that ultimately NPK is NPK? I mean I know it can go deeper like macro and micro nutrients, micorrhiza etc. but isn't the actual NPK what it really comes down to. Aside from, I suppose, the time of release in granulated ferts determining dosage. I'm almost afraid to post this question, lol.

Well, to get a detailed answer, you'd have to ask Pauline. Sadly, that's no longer possible. I was just relaying what I remember of what she said in a workshop that I took a few years ago.

As far as NPK being NPK, well, yes and no. Ultimately, the plant is getting the same nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium atoms. However, formulation matters to some extent (how much, exactly, I wouldn't claim to know). For example, the nitrogen might exist in the form of ammonia, or urea, or nitrate salts. That can have an effect on how quickly and efficiently the tree is able to make use of the fertilizer. Some forms are more readily soluble in water than others, for example. Synthetic fertilizers are made to dissolve in water immediately. Organic fertilizers start out primarily in the form of insoluble solids. Gradually, over time, these solids are broken down by microbes in the soil to yield soluble forms of NPK that can be utilized by the plant.

It's a little bit like when you go to the pharmacy to buy an over-the-counter pain reliever. A lot of the products on the shelves are NSAIDs, but they can have different formulations and that can make a difference in how they affect you when you take them. Some are formulated to do their job quickly. Others might have a time-release formulation.

 

[Shibui]

While I repot larger bonsai every few years depending on root growth I have manged smaller shohin sized bonsai with far fewer losses since switching to annual repotting. In the past I'd lose trees every summer because the small pots were so crowded with roots that there's no room for water. Since switching to annual root pruning for smaller bonsai I can now keep them alive for many years. To some extent it is also related to species so even shohin and mini junipers don't need annual repotting but faster growing tridents, elms, etc do much better.

The concept of 1.1.1 being way out in plant need ratio has already been covered. Low N can help with reduced internodes but so can judicious timing and application rates of higher analysis commercial fert.
If you choose to attend workshops run by people with vested interests in product sales you should expect to get sales talk rather than good advice.