rhizotonic, do you use it?

rockm said:
Uh, marine algae is basically, seaweed. Algal extracts are included. Get the book, stop wasting your money on mostly useless stuff.
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Rock, I agree with you on this, and im the type willing to try anything, but this shit is too spendy. so, what are your thoughts on the humic acid smoke is always talking? I am going to get me some of that.
 
There's actual science to support humic acid. It's also VERY easy to see results. Big leaves, long internodes, fast growth. Perfect for growing trunks or primary branches.
 
Jester217300 said:
There's actual science to support humic acid. It's also VERY easy to see results. Big leaves, long internodes, fast growth. Perfect for growing trunks or primary branches.
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That's not been my experience with ANY of the humic acid I've used. The inorganic soils used for bonsai are problematic for any of this stuff. Look, the hype associated with these kinds of things is usually 95 percent smoke and mirrors, with possibly a 5 percent return.

As you can see above, this stuff is more emotionally appealing than scientifically effective. The jury is out from what I've read on humic acids. Typically, as has happened here, you get devoted fans who claim they've had miraculous results with the stuff. They tend to overwhelm conversations with emotional tirades about how THERE IS ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC PROOF what they're using works, when in fact, they've cherry picked among sometimes questionable research or there is no proof.

Happened with Superthrive. It's happening again with "Bio stimulants" which includes algal and humic additives. Expensive products with little, if any benefits.
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/...e/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html
 
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every body out here looking for the magic ingredient, everybody trying to get rich!

Bobby you should stop by my bench sometime soon, got a few trees that need input.
 
There is some proof that some of this stuff works (and exactly WHAT IT IS is a problem, since there is no standard of what IS being used). However, the testing is done with plants in the ground in soil. Not in the modern inorganic soils used for bonsai. That presents some BIG problems, since a lot of these products depend on organic soils and microbe populations. Fast draining inorganic soils tend not to support those things or even hold onto humic acids when they're added.

There is also evidence that there's a downside to them also. Research below is from the U.S. Golf Association-citing a Utah state study. Since golf courses would seem to be a primary market for these products, such a study that basically says "don't waste your money" is interesting.
http://usgatero.msu.edu/v08/n04.pdf
 
Golf?

Golf???

The only thing golf is good for is night fishing!

Speaking of fish!

Sorce
 
thats what I love about you Rock, playing the devils advocate from a logical, well thought out, seemingly unbiased standpoint, with cited relevant research backing your insight and opinions. good stuff, it does make sense.

I think though in this case, applied to container gardening, this argument may have a few holes. I think smoke's article did address the issue regarding the new age bonsai practices of inorganic mixes. and I think his main point was that humic acid increases the the ability for a container grown plant to respond to foliar feeding, and the main point being exactly that, the lack of organic materials containing humic acid, and pointed to the magic akadama, and how it does contain humic acids, something about how the humic acid works with the roots to uptake nutes better from the leaves and roots. and humic is best given in small doses, often, say every watering, to coat the roots knowing the substrate is unable to hold the humic. in regards to me personally why im quickly sold on the magic acid, I like to add fir bark to my mix, which may be bad idk, but I think helps retain nutes better, adam levien has a nice write up on his blog about the CEC properties of varies soil ingredients, but my idea is the fir bark will hold the humic more as well. heres a link to the product i plan to purchase, its a much cheaper random shot than the rhiztonic at least.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088NC7FC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1I0HX534SI4W3
 
sorce said:
Golf?

Golf???

The only thing golf is good for is night fishing!

Speaking of fish!

Sorce
Click to expand...

lol sorce golf is fun as shit, you would be amazed at some of the old manicured trees on the nice golf courses around, you want to see a true formal upright? go to a golf course. prestine landscape as well. I caught a 5 lb bass on a $200 per round golf course in florida one time though, haha
 
I fished on a golf course where they wouldn't let Tiger Woods Play cuz he was BLACK!

Sorce
 
Waltron said:
thats what I love about you Rock, playing the devils advocate from a logical, well thought out, seemingly unbiased standpoint, with cited relevant research backing your insight and opinions. good stuff, it does make sense.

I think though in this case, applied to container gardening, this argument may have a few holes. I think smoke's article did address the issue regarding the new age bonsai practices of inorganic mixes. and I think his main point was that humic acid increases the the ability for a container grown plant to respond to foliar feeding, and the main point being exactly that, the lack of organic materials containing humic acid, and pointed to the magic akadama, and how it does contain humic acids, something about how the humic acid works with the roots to uptake nutes better from the leaves and roots. and humic is best given in small doses, often, say every watering, to coat the roots knowing the substrate is unable to hold the humic. in regards to me personally why im quickly sold on the magic acid, I like to add fir bark to my mix, which may be bad idk, but I think helps retain nutes better, adam levien has a nice write up on his blog about the CEC properties of varies soil ingredients, but my idea is the fir bark will hold the humic more as well. heres a link to the product i plan to purchase, its a much cheaper random shot than the rhiztonic at least.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088NC7FC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1I0HX534SI4W3
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Thats 1 lb for $16?

How about 55lbs for $30?

I don't know if it's an equal product.

http://www.compostwerks.com/organic...humates-coarse-55-pound-bag-omri-listed#sizes

http://www.blackearth.com

That's what I'm using, we bought the bag for one of our bioengineering projects it was part of the prescription. I kept the leftovers.
Again I can't say I does any wonders but I toss a handful into the barrel sometimes.
image.jpg
 
oh that looks like nice particle size that may work as part of the soil mix even!
 
Waltron said:
thats what I love about you Rock, playing the devils advocate from a logical, well thought out, seemingly unbiased standpoint, with cited relevant research backing your insight and opinions. good stuff, it does make sense.

I think though in this case, applied to container gardening, this argument may have a few holes. I think smoke's article did address the issue regarding the new age bonsai practices of inorganic mixes. and I think his main point was that humic acid increases the the ability for a container grown plant to respond to foliar feeding, and the main point being exactly that, the lack of organic materials containing humic acid, and pointed to the magic akadama, and how it does contain humic acids, something about how the humic acid works with the roots to uptake nutes better from the leaves and roots. and humic is best given in small doses, often, say every watering, to coat the roots knowing the substrate is unable to hold the humic. in regards to me personally why im quickly sold on the magic acid, I like to add fir bark to my mix, which may be bad idk, but I think helps retain nutes better, adam levien has a nice write up on his blog about the CEC properties of varies soil ingredients, but my idea is the fir bark will hold the humic more as well. heres a link to the product i plan to purchase, its a much cheaper random shot than the rhiztonic at least.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088NC7FC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1I0HX534SI4W3
Click to expand...

Seriously? "Something about how its works" I think points to hocus pocus value points here.

FWIW, Akadama IS NOT an organically rich soil. It is a mostly sterile subsoil that has little if any "organic" activity. The good stuff has been fired to further sterilize it. It has to be sterile to come into the U.S. There are no particular special properties to Akadama that make it more conducive to humic acid or zebra eyeball extracts, or even as a worthy import.
 
if there is one thing I know, its that plants are mysterious. They dont talk and tell us what they need, its all just a big crap shoot, we just give them what we think they want, and evaluate the effects and interpret the results the best we can. I dont plan to use akadama, I was using that as an example, from something I read somewhere, of something that has proven effective, for some reason, and a potential aspect to the mysterious properties of akadama is that it contains humic acid. Like everyone else, im looking for something cheap to increase my bonsai's yeild of viewing pleasure, or to limit loss of valuable collected material by any means within reason. I just feel like this humic acid has more legs than the rhiztonic, and im always glad to hear from the pundits, especially you. im tryin to move forward and not stagnate.. I've got to do something, right?

wish I had a resource like you in my other hobbies.. do you hunt? what do you think about activated carbon, and zeolite, in regards to scentlok clothing filtering the human scent from the air?
 
I find it pretty hard to believe any of the claims or counter claims about damn near anything myself.
For example my co-worker who convinced us years ago to include humic acid in our prescriptions. Very intelligent guy, genius with numbers, degrees in soil sciences. Further education since then in horticulture, soils etc... Good guy to listen to right?
He also builds copper pyramids in his basement and holds them over his head to slow the aging process.
No joke, true story, it's awesome!
 
Have been a traditional bowhunter since I was in junior high school (#50 Bear Grizzly and Kodiak Magnum--compound bows are mostly guns with strings). Haven't been in a decade though. FWIW, Activated carbon, zeolite, expensive scent-Lok underwear etc. ain't gonna do shit if you don't know how to shoot instinctively or walk in the woods quietly.

Plants are not as mysterious as many in bonsai consider them to be. They follow the basics of other plants.

Every hobby and pastime has its share of silly stuff. Bonsai, being already "mysterious" has more than its share. People involved with it are also gardeners, who are an already-superstitious lot susceptible to hokey hearsay.
 
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