Rules for bonsai exhibits...

[Cadillactaste]

I don't wish to hijack the artisan cup thread...but am quoting a thread taken from there. Just curious...is it common practice to submit a tree one has not seen or worked in a bonsai show? Or is this a new trend taking place?

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Cadillactaste,

I saw a post on Facebook by the guy who placed second. And he was forthright in saying that while he was the owner, he gave all the credit to the people who had performed all the work on the tree. And those people were: Randy Knight, who collected it; Boon, who did the first styling; and Ryan Neil, who did the latest styling.

So, there you have it. Randy collected many of the trees in the show. Boon was one of the judges. Ryan worked on many of the trees in the show. The bonsai world is indeed a small one.
I just saw that post. In addition to the above (but note that Randy did not collect this one), he said that he has never even seen the tree in person, which I found...strange. I guess he purchased it based on photos, then left it for the past 3 years with Ryan to care for and style it.

OK...to each his own.

Sounds like those of us on the east coast will get a chance to see it next September. Looking forward to that.

coh, Yesterday at 9:49 PMReport
#165LikeReply

 

[rockm]

The disconnect on some of this stuff is particularly American, IMO. In Japan, this kind of approach is pretty common. Big name buyers purchase a tree and never lay a hand on it, or even see it in person, from what I've heard. It's about the best tree, etc. etc. Since Ryan N. spent time over there in big bonsai nurseries, that is undoubtedly part of the deal here.

It's not really a bad thing, but it is a deep-pockets thing...I think something like this happened with the first "American" tree shown at Kokufu, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The disconnect on some of this stuff is particularly American, IMO. In Japan, this kind of approach is pretty common. Big name buyers purchase a tree and never lay a hand on it, or even see it in person, from what I've heard. It's about the best tree, etc. etc. Since Ryan N. spent time over there in big bonsai nurseries, that is undoubtedly part of the deal here.

It's not really a bad thing, but it is a deep-pockets thing...I think something like this happened with the first "American" tree shown at Kokufu, if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks for explaining! I must say...it makes me happy I am just a tiny peaon enjoying trees in my own back yard. For that to me isn't bonsai...it's more of a collector of sorts getting glory for deep pockets. (No offense) But...it totally puts a bad taste of showing bonsai to me. Something I can say...after learning...I have no desire to be part of that mix. But, those who do...and are of the caliber to design so exquisitely and win over a collector. It's a real accomplishment for them. Hats off to those true at heart bonsai folk...rooting for you in this corner.

 

[rockm]

That's unfortunate. I've seen more than a few "backyard peons" get stuck in a rut and make the same mistakes or tree over and over and over again. This kind of event will kick you in the pants if you attend or even think of competing in it.

If you've never put your tree on the line in front of others, then you're really only doing half of what bonsai can offer. Despite the "trophy" mentality that drives people to huge, collected conifer stock (and this is not a huge group), there is plenty of room for the rest of us lesser mortals in competitions. You haven't experienced bonsai until you overhear someone you don't know talking about your tree. Doesn't make any difference really if their remarks are good or bad. The fact they're talking about what they see in your work will make you want to do bonsai better.

 

[whfarro]

The disconnect on some of this stuff is particularly American, IMO. In Japan, this kind of approach is pretty common. Big name buyers purchase a tree and never lay a hand on it, or even see it in person, from what I've heard. It's about the best tree, etc. etc. Since Ryan N. spent time over there in big bonsai nurseries, that is undoubtedly part of the deal here.

It's not really a bad thing, but it is a deep-pockets thing...I think something like this happened with the first "American" tree shown at Kokufu, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, this is a common practice especially in Japan so I hear.

I guess this is similar to dog shows or horse racing. The owner may actually seldom see the animal. The trainers, handlers and other "professionals" are the workers that make the champion.

 

[rockm]

The show is extremely similar to dog shows, believe me. When I was a kid about 10,000 years ago, my mom bred and showed dogs. I spent a lot of my childhood up going to shows around the country as kennel help ;-) I see similar drama, tension and motivations in bonsai competitions, especially high level shows like this one.

BTW, I always get a chuckle out of watching the Westminster Kennel Club show on TV. Some of the judges have pretty interesting backstories, some great, some pretty sordid.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The show is extremely similar to dog shows, believe me. When I was a kid about 10,000 years ago, my mom bred and showed dogs. I spent a lot of my childhood up going to shows around the country as kennel help ;-) I see similar drama, tension and motivations in bonsai competitions, especially high level shows like this one.

BTW, I always get a chuckle out of watching the Westminster Kennel Club show on TV. Some of the judges have pretty interesting backstories, some great, some pretty sordid.

My aussie's littermate made the cut for Westminster. I agree...dog show people are a breed of their own. Went to one dog show with my Aussie...had some extremely nice folk there. Then others were not so nice. The hair products placed on dogs! Made me afraid to pet some. My gal...had no products and walked out with first place, and best opposite. . First and last show...it just wasn't for me. But, there are protocol with judges and not showing if the judge has ties to your line to some degree. (At least from the show I went to...things had to be checked)

I also watched a show breeder get eaten alive for offering assistance to an oops breeding of an English Bulldog. It was ugly...

Sad to think it's in all avenues of shows...

 

[rockm]

The bottom line with dog shows (and I think probably with bonsai) is that the people involved are some of the most knowledgeable and passionate about what they're doing. There are also a few crazies, egomaniacs and people in it for the wrong reasons. They are far from the majority, however.

The judge's ties to the breed they're evaluating are difficult to untangle. If they're a judge worth their salt, they have DEEP ties in the breed and if they've shown their own dogs (and most have) they probably have developed championship lines that are still present in the best dogs in the breed (similar to the best bonsai collectors and their collected trees in this show). It's hard to separate them from that, but they can't judge competitions in which they have ownership or co-ownership of a dog they're judging.

 

[Paradox]

Yes there are some deep pockets at bonsai shows. I was at ABS and got a number to participate in the auction. I quickly realized how badly I am outclassed by some of those people and didn't stand a chance getting anything in that auction.

As has been stated, I don't care what realm you are in (dogs, cars, fishing you name it), you see the same.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The ones I know...won't have a judge that had a part in the breeding of their litter and that dog in the same ring. Because they want the weight of the win to not be prejudice of others. Even if the judge is not owner or co-owner of said dog. If they are tied to the breeding of that litter...then they won't have that judge be in the same ring with their dog. That's with English Bulldogs and the Aussie world. Sure lines eventually can run to other lines...but, a litter breeding is handled differently in a ring. For most...because if the judge owned the bitch or stud...they don't judge that litter in a ring. Thus the reason why many dog shows have a few judges on hand is the way I figured it.

 

[Cadillactaste]

But in the eyes of the collector...I imagine the judges only see the works of those who had their hands on the tree. Not the owner. The ones who's hands did the work...is what is judged. So...thus, it's like a silent artist having his work judged by others...when one sees those collectors trees to some degree.

 

[Paradox]

I really don't see the big deal with this.

I think with very high caliber trees, it is unrealistic to expect that only the owner be the one who does the work. In the United States there wouldnt be enough trees to do a show.

Where do you draw the line?

Should Yamadori be allowed with cultivated trees, should the owner have been working on the tree himself for 5, 10 or more years? I think putting these kinds of restrictions will serve to retard the development of bonsai here not enhance it.

Now I can see having different categories such as Yamadori vs cultivated and professional vs amateur categories. Amateur shows should be encouraged more.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I really don't see the big deal with this.

I think with very high caliber trees, it is unrealistic to expect that only the owner be the one who does the work. In the United States there wouldnt be enough trees to do a show.

Where do you draw the line?

Should Yamadori be allowed with cultivated trees, should the owner have been working on the tree himself for 5, 10 or more years? I think putting these kinds of restrictions will serve to retard the development of bonsai here not enhance it.

Now I can see having different categories such as Yamadori vs cultivated and professional vs amateur categories. Amateur shows should be encouraged more.

My only Hang up...was of one not even seeing the tree before the show...never working it.Unless I read it wrong. Trying to come to grips with its done...and has been done. In that case...the tree is judged on prior artists per say...correct? Sure many artists can work a tree...but it's the one that hasn't touched it that had me pause. But, I'm new to bonsai...and didn't realize this is the norm in Japan. Thus...chewed on it a bit...and can see that then, the prior work is of the artists who done the work up to that point. Is being judged.

I can see that many hands can work a tree...it's the one who never touched a tree I had trouble with. But, I can see it's a tree that still was styled. And that those previous masters work is what is actually being brought to the table for the judging.

If others have no qualm of someone working a tree then judging it later...then, who am I to judge that this is the "way" of bonsai. It's done as well.

And I'm chewing on the collectors tree...and how and what it's being judged on. I'm still wet behind the ear...with bonsai. So the political politics is relatively new. But...it did cause me to pause, to say otherwise I would be not honest.

 

[Cadillactaste]

That's unfortunate. I've seen more than a few "backyard peons" get stuck in a rut and make the same mistakes or tree over and over and over again. This kind of event will kick you in the pants if you attend or even think of competing in it.

If you've never put your tree on the line in front of others, then you're really only doing half of what bonsai can offer. Despite the "trophy" mentality that drives people to huge, collected conifer stock (and this is not a huge group), there is plenty of room for the rest of us lesser mortals in competitions. You haven't experienced bonsai until you overhear someone you don't know talking about your tree. Doesn't make any difference really if their remarks are good or bad. The fact they're talking about what they see in your work will make you want to do bonsai better.

I have no problem with having ones critique my trees...it opens up ideas that one may not have seen...I just doubt I would want to be out on display with the politics that I guess I didn't realize was part of bonsai. But, I can see your points, very valid.

 

[whfarro]

A good number of show quality trees move from owner to owner and/or have seen the hands and skills of many artists over their existence. I believe somewhere else on this forum was a discussion about how and when to document that in the higher profile shows...Do we say on the card...owned by: collected by: propagated by: most recently styled by: sponsored by:....ha now that's where this will lead to...Bonsai with as many sponsors as a NASCAR team or European Football club.

 

[Paradox]

Again, who cares who owns the tree and who works on it? The point is that it is a bonsai and someone did the work to get it to where it is.

I just don't get the holier than though purist mentality some people have with this. (This comment is not directed at you Cadillac).

The expectation that an exhibited tree be only worked on by the one person that owns it is unrealistic.

I cant speak for every show, but from what I have seen of this show and other high level exhibits the label on the tree or at least the brochure describing the tree clearly states owner and at least the person who did the most recent work on it.

If there should be any rules, then perhaps details on who has done the work on the tree for the last 10 years should be included in the exhibit brochure. Credit where credit is due so to speak.

 

[Dav4]

Even at the local level, I see folks with descent trees paying for professionals to routinely work them. There are a few members of the Atlanta Bonsai Society who pay professionals like Suthin, Kenji and Kathey Shaner to fly out here and work their trees once or twice a year. These are good trees but you will likely never see them shown at the national level only because the owners aren't interested in the effort of showing them so far away from home.

 

[whfarro]

Post show interview..."I really think we had a top 5 tree today, the guys back at the shop really worked hard to get this Budweiser, Samsung Galaxy Shimpaku to top form...just too bad we couldn't pull off a win here today...we'll take a look at the data, regroup and be ready for next week's Taco Bell Silhouette show brought to you by UPS"

 

[coh]

My only Hang up...was of one not even seeing the tree before the show...never working it.Unless I read it wrong. Trying to come to grips with its done...and has been done. In that case...the tree is judged on prior artists per say...correct? Sure many artists can work a tree...but it's the one that hasn't touched it that had me pause.

I think you have to accept the fact that it is the tree that is being awarded, and since the tree can't really do much with the prize money...it goes to the owner.

In the case being discussed, where you quoted my post...I should clarify and expand on that a bit. There was more to the facebook post. The guy who owns the tree is taking possession of it this week (it's being transported from Portland to his location). And he mentioned that he hoped he could "do it justice" in the future, which I read as meaning he will care for and style the tree. So, he is someone who does bonsai, not just owns bonsai.

So the question, who deserves the prize and money...if this guy hadn't purchased the tree (thousands of dollars I'm sure) and then paid Ryan to style and care for the tree for 3 years (probably thousands more), the tree might not have been developed to this level and might not even be in the show. So why not give the prize to the person who paid to get the tree to that point, even if he didn't do the work?

 

[Cadillactaste]

I think you have to accept the fact that it is the tree that is being awarded, and since the tree can't really do much with the prize money...it goes to the owner.

In the case being discussed, where you quoted my post...I should clarify and expand on that a bit. There was more to the facebook post. The guy who owns the tree is taking possession of it this week (it's being transported from Portland to his location). And he mentioned that he hoped he could "do it justice" in the future, which I read as meaning he will care for and style the tree. So, he is someone who does bonsai, not just owns bonsai.

So the question, who deserves the prize and money...if this guy hadn't purchased the tree (thousands of dollars I'm sure) and then paid Ryan to style and care for the tree for 3 years (probably thousands more), the tree might not have been developed to this level and might not even be in the show. So why not give the prize to the person who paid to get the tree to that point, even if he didn't do the work?

Oh...so he does do work on bonsai. Yeah, I didn't feel that in your post and don't know any of the names being mentioned to be honest. But, it also opened my eyes to what is submitted as to trees not always being touched by the submitter. Can and do win the prize...chewing on all this.

So...he paid Ryan to style and care for the tree for 3 years...and Ryan's last styling was what was judged then? And...Ryan then was one of the factoring judges of the tie breaker. Yeah...I guess I don't get the politics of bonsai. I am trying to wrap my brain around it...because all three top trees were worked by his/Ryan's hands right? But those three were officially judged by others not Ryan which placed them in the top three. So...making it okay for him to cast his vote on the tie breaker...right? The trees he judged hadn't been worked on by another up to judging day then. Or, am I missing something. There for...it didn't matter that he was in sense judging his own works.