Scots and Mugos Repotting Discussion

So Vance, what are your thoughts on the mugo I repotted in the spring, as a newbie to bonsai, where I totally butalized the roots. I must have taken 60 % off easily, probably more.
I seriously didnt know any better at the time and only realized afterwards that Id probably taken too many roots. I did reduce some of the foliage at the same time though.
The tree amazingly survived. Did I just get lucky? Either that or the tree has an amazing will to live?
I have never sat myself up as being the last or first word on Mugo Pines. I have simply shared my experiences good, bad and questionable. I have had success growing this tree for bonsai where many have not. I have demonstrated, by getting people to try what I have done, the Mugo Pine can be grown as a bonsai while many were teaching that the Mugo cannot or is inferior or environmentally incompatible with a particular location. Yes it is possible to brutalize a Mugo in the spring and have it survive. Is that luck or what----I don't know. You very well could have lost the tree. It is possible you could have brutalized a tree in the summer and lost it. Is that misfortune or what---I don't know that one either. There are a host of things that could play into the question, not the least of which must be considered as grower's misunderstanding of instructions. The point is there are still people in the mainstream that are teaching that you cannot make a bonsai of a Mugo Pine. I found that out at the ABS convention this Spring, one of the teachers was quoted as saying this. I feel like the clock had been turned back fifteen years.
 
And here I thought we were going to have a thoughtful discussion on repotting Mugos.....

Sorce
 
Im interested..everytime someone says something, i learn something more that helps me.

Rick
 
And here I thought we were going to have a thoughtful discussion on repotting Mugos.....

Sorce
What do you call what has occurred? At this point we are discussing the different approaches to repotting.

I think everyone here knows where I am coming from, I have stated it enough times. The other point may be valid as being the method recommended for years by the same people who said to do them in the Spring; but when pressed would tell you that they don't have any Mugos or--- the ones they had, died in a couple of years. Usually right after they repotted them--- in the Spring. You can do them any way you want with my blessing.
 
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When I was buying my last mugo in the arboretum, had a talk with a woman working there... We came to the conclusion it was too late to repot in the spring, and she mentioned summer repotting as next closest vote. But that mugo ended put in the ground as a garden tree, sure no root works...:)Slippoted to the ground.:)
 
I know that one of the people on this thread mentioned losing one after a summer repot but no details were furnished as to what happened during that repot.

Was that me? I did answer on the other thread... I repoted a month late and two consecutive years.
 
I started this thread last year on repotting scots pines but there is also some good information on mugos.

My scots pine was repotted in the beginning of August. It has had no problems and is growing quite well this spring. I have another scots pine that I picked up this spring that I plan on repotting this summer.

I have had 4 mugos so far.

One I repotted in beginning of July. It didn't miss a beat and is going strong. I put it into a colander and it was pushing roots out the bottom about a month later.

One I purchased already potted. I believe it had been repotted the spring I got it. That was two years ago and it has just regained some vigor this year. Both were repotted in summer.

The two others are no longer with me. One had too much foliage removed at once and didn't make it though the first season. The other never looked good after winter but was finally done after a being dropped off the bench twice. Both were dwarf cultivars which could have something to do with it.
 
Was that me? I did answer on the other thread... I repoted a month late and two consecutive years.
There is the stressor, doing the root work two years in a row. That's how I lost a nice Mugo, even just a little disturbance of the root system a year after root work.
 
I started this thread last year on repotting scots pines but there is also some good information on mugos.

My scots pine was repotted in the beginning of August. It has had no problems and is growing quite well this spring. I have another scots pine that I picked up this spring that I plan on repotting this summer.

I have had 4 mugos so far.

One I repotted in beginning of July. It didn't miss a beat and is going strong. I put it into a colander and it was pushing roots out the bottom about a month later.

One I purchased already potted. I believe it had been repotted the spring I got it. That was two years ago and it has just regained some vigor this year. Both were repotted in summer.

The two others are no longer with me. One had too much foliage removed at once and didn't make it though the first season. The other never looked good after winter but was finally done after a being dropped off the bench twice. Both were dwarf cultivars which could have something to do with it.
Over this last year I have become increasingly aware that there are many of Mugo cultivars, maybe as many as there are of Japanese Maples. The point: I have always found the dwarf cultivars to be fussy and may not do well no matter what you do. I discovered that my Zombi Mugo is a Mops dwarf and I almost killed it the first time it was potted up. That tree is probably one of the most important learning tools I encountered.
 
How many Mugos do you have and how long have you had them?

I am an avid preacher of when a new plant interests you to get a few small ones and see if they even live for you first. That along with a lot of information here I feel will make my first Mugo attempts successful but as with all only time will tell.

Grimmy
 
It is of course the willingness to experiment and recognize an unlooked for result, that has fueled my endeavors with the Mugo Pine. At first, it was nothing more than doing things the wrong way but in recognizing that something was going on, I took the extra step and learned a lot about the tree and now a lot of people think I know what I am talking about.
 
I have never sat myself up as being the last or first word on Mugo Pines. I have simply shared my experiences good, bad and questionable. I have had success growing this tree for bonsai where many have not. I have demonstrated, by getting people to try what I have done, the Mugo Pine can be grown as a bonsai while many were teaching that the Mugo cannot or is inferior or environmentally incompatible with a particular location.
[.......]
The point is there are still people in the mainstream that are teaching that you cannot make a bonsai of a Mugo Pine. I found that out at the ABS convention this Spring, one of the teachers was quoted as saying this. I feel like the clock had been turned back fifteen years.

I would love to know who that was. So did those people happen to see the two wonderful mugos you had on display in the exhibit? Hopefully anyone that heard them say that, saw your trees and has half a brain enough to think for themselves.

Honestly if that didn't at least start to open their mind to the possibility that mugos can be grown for bonsai, I am afraid nothing will.

There ARE also some mainstream people that are coming around to mugos. They are becoming more common so I would not feel as though time is regressing on the mugo just yet.

As you can see, I have several. I don't plan on giving them up yet.
 
Sometimes I feel like I live in a totally different world from those who move in those circles of Professional collectors. It is after all about the trees---that's what they say but you can't argue that is not the way it is in Japan.

I have come to the conclusion that there are those who think what they think and believe what they believe. They think they know it all and if any of them saw any of my trees they probably thought they were terrible because they were Mugos and designed by a nobody. When you consider that the majority of the top awards went to trees that were designed by Ryan Neil just a year or two ago, and were very expensive and beautiful Yamadori, my trees must have looked very much like an unflushed toilet in a public restroom. I really don't care as long as they are not trying to pass off these trees as their own works of art and claim verification that they know what they are doing.
 
When you consider that the majority of the top awards went to trees that were designed by Ryan Neil just a year or two ago, and were very expensive and beautiful Yamadori, my trees must have looked very much like an unflushed toilet in a public restroom. I really don't care as long as they are not trying to pass off these trees as their own works of art and claim verification that they know what they are doing.

Sorry, but I've seen this argument before, and it's ridiculous. Does anyone really think that world-class bonsai get plucked out of the ground, delivered to Ryan Neil's doorstep, then he shoves them in a bonsai pot and trots off to collect his trophy? If you go browse Randy Knight's tree yard, you'll see a ton of interesting stuff with great potential, but which needs years of work to create bonsai. Ryan (or any master) brings tremendous knowledge and talent to bear on these trees to get them healthy and to create an artistic image as rapidly as possible. Prior to this effort, they're generally scruffy-looking things with questionable foliage. To claim that they come out of the ground as ready-made works of art is just sour grapes. Whether we like the image is a matter of individual taste, but Ryan's skill in creating it is undeniable.
 
I simply related the facts. Those who exhibited the trees were not ashamed of what they did. When you see trees that had major awards being in training for two years what would you think? It is what it is.
 
Summer repottimg. You know it is listed in many books as the ''second season'' for repotting, usually noting that for what ever reason it is not as good as early spring, but it is not an ''unheard of'' time for repotting.

I have too many trees, and not enough time. As a result I loose several every year for one bone head reason or another. Sometimes I can identify the cause, sometimes not.

My ''Mugo Train'' ticket tree is my 3rd mugo. My 2 earlier mugos perished, long before I ever saw or rather seriously read Vance's posts on mugo. I no longer recall the why for them, most likely too many things done without allowing enought time to pass. For my new mugo, it was a tree picked up from a bonsai club member, and I am taking my time with it. Apparently it was repotted last year, and had all the year's new growth removed sometime in that same summer. So this year it has new buds all over. I'm going to let it grow. I won't repot for several years as it is in a suiable training pot, and the mix is very similar to my own, draining well. I will re-read Vance's directions, but likely I won't de-candle until summer 2017, and won't restyle it until it is bushy, and I have lots of branches to choose from.

But Vance's ideas on summer repotting do echo my experience with cork bark JBP. I have been dabbling with bonsai and cork bark JBP for 35 to 40 years. Over this time I have owned over 30 different cork bark JBP. The longest I kept one going was 18 years, got over excited with how great its bark was becoming and did too much to it in one year, repotting, styling, and candle pruning all in rapid succession.RIP. I line north of Chicago, south of Milwaukee, in a climate that is too cold for normal JBP to be reliably hardy. Cork barked JBP seem to be much less vigorous, less cold tolerant, and much less reliable than regular JBP. The mutation really does leave the tree with issues that make it much more succeptible to ''sudden death syndrom''.

I live close to Lake Michigan and often have long, cold springs, where temps never get above 60 F for any length of time until after first of June. Cork bark JBP need heat to wake up and grow. The 7 corkers I have, that are still alive, are just pushing new growth now, the last week of May.

I found over the years that I can loose a pine after a spring repot, and after a summer repot, but for my cork bark JBP, in my climate, a summer repot seems to have a greater degree of success. I definitely have fewer issues if I hold off and don't repot until late June, or early July. It is important to note that I on the average I have fewer than 10 days a year above 90 F. So trees can grow all summer long without serious heat stress. In autumn I do bring newly repotted trees in before temps drop below 28 F after repotting, as I fear the new root system may be more touchy about cold that an already normally touchy cork bark JBP would be. I had started over (again) with cork barks, and my oldest is only about 5 years in my care, but since moving to summer repots, I have stopped loosing so many right after repotting. I have one that is old enough to have fully developed cork on the trunk, but not the branches. The other 6 are young, grafted trees, all picked up within the last 5 years. Maybe before I'm crippled and crazy I will have a ''corker'' with actual cork, and enough green needles that I would not be embarrassed to show it.

Key is, technique and timing should be adjusted to how a tree responds in your own climate. Living north of ideal JBP climate, I have found summer repotting is on the average ''less risky'' than early spring repotting. If you live in Atlanta area, or other more ideal JBP territory, or an area with brutally hot summers, you might not get the results I'm seeing. But my cool springs, with trees that ''wake up'' late, summer repotting works for me.
 
Summer repottimg. You know it is listed in many books as the ''second season'' for repotting, usually noting that for what ever reason it is not as good as early spring, but it is not an ''unheard of'' time for repotting.

I have too many trees, and not enough time. As a result I loose several every year for one bone head reason or another. Sometimes I can identify the cause, sometimes not.

My ''Mugo Train'' ticket tree is my 3rd mugo. My 2 earlier mugos perished, long before I ever saw or rather seriously read Vance's posts on mugo. I no longer recall the why for them, most likely too many things done without allowing enought time to pass. For my new mugo, it was a tree picked up from a bonsai club member, and I am taking my time with it. Apparently it was repotted last year, and had all the year's new growth removed sometime in that same summer. So this year it has new buds all over. I'm going to let it grow. I won't repot for several years as it is in a suiable training pot, and the mix is very similar to my own, draining well. I will re-read Vance's directions, but likely I won't de-candle until summer 2017, and won't restyle it until it is bushy, and I have lots of branches to choose from.

But Vance's ideas on summer repotting do echo my experience with cork bark JBP. I have been dabbling with bonsai and cork bark JBP for 35 to 40 years. Over this time I have owned over 30 different cork bark JBP. The longest I kept one going was 18 years, got over excited with how great its bark was becoming and did too much to it in one year, repotting, styling, and candle pruning all in rapid succession.RIP. I line north of Chicago, south of Milwaukee, in a climate that is too cold for normal JBP to be reliably hardy. Cork barked JBP seem to be much less vigorous, less cold tolerant, and much less reliable than regular JBP. The mutation really does leave the tree with issues that make it much more succeptible to ''sudden death syndrom''.

I live close to Lake Michigan and often have long, cold springs, where temps never get above 60 F for any length of time until after first of June. Cork bark JBP need heat to wake up and grow. The 7 corkers I have, that are still alive, are just pushing new growth now, the last week of May.

I found over the years that I can loose a pine after a spring repot, and after a summer repot, but for my cork bark JBP, in my climate, a summer repot seems to have a greater degree of success. I definitely have fewer issues if I hold off and don't repot until late June, or early July. It is important to note that I on the average I have fewer than 10 days a year above 90 F. So trees can grow all summer long without serious heat stress. In autumn I do bring newly repotted trees in before temps drop below 28 F after repotting, as I fear the new root system may be more touchy about cold that an already normally touchy cork bark JBP would be. I had started over (again) with cork barks, and my oldest is only about 5 years in my care, but since moving to summer repots, I have stopped loosing so many right after repotting. I have one that is old enough to have fully developed cork on the trunk, but not the branches. The other 6 are young, grafted trees, all picked up within the last 5 years. Maybe before I'm crippled and crazy I will have a ''corker'' with actual cork, and enough green needles that I would not be embarrassed to show it.

Key is, technique and timing should be adjusted to how a tree responds in your own climate. Living north of ideal JBP climate, I have found summer repotting is on the average ''less risky'' than early spring repotting. If you live in Atlanta area, or other more ideal JBP territory, or an area with brutally hot summers, you might not get the results I'm seeing. But my cool springs, with trees that ''wake up'' late, summer repotting works for me.

You may be on to something. It does bear looking into and documenting as well as Moon cycles, and I am not adverse to either study. People have been setting and harvesting crops by the cycles of the Moon for thousands of years. I know it is considered superstition in more scientific circles but scientific circles used to sell the assumed fact that the Earth was flat.
 
Update on this scots pine. It absolutely loved being in the new soil and grew great. The needles are bigger and fuller this year than before and it has put growth on the girth of the branches. It thickened one branch to the point that I wish I had cut it off last year. It is also really starting to grow back its bark after newb me accidentally removed it the first time I repotted.

It is going to get wired and two branches cut this fall which will leave one more for next year and all the unwanted branches will be gone.

August2016_Small.jpg
 
They do love free draining,airy soils don't they?
 
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