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RyanFrye

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I recently won this scroll on ebay. It's being shipped from Japan. The seller is reporting that it is 180 years old. I don't know anything about scrolls, other than I know I like it. It's a chrisanthemum flower.

Anyone know how to authenticate scrolls?
 

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Is there a way you could opost a close up, clear picture of the painting itself? Maybe a scan?





Will
 

Ang3lfir3

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you have excellent taste. this is a beautiful scroll.....
 

RyanFrye

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Is there a way you could opost a close up, clear picture of the painting itself? Maybe a scan?





Will

Sorry, I thought I posted a close up...here it is.
 

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JasonG

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be careful with it though... if it is an antique from Japan it will be fragile. It should come in a very cool hand made antique box as well, the whole thing is just awesome...I should be getting some soon too....

I really like this one and like AngelFire I think you have great taste.

Thanks, Jason
 

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Hi Ryan,

180 years...probably not

Check on the ends of the bottom hang bar. If they unscrew as plastic caps it was probably made in the 1960's or 70's. There are thousands of these out there if it was.

also check the scroll stiffners at the top (the additional fabric bands) check to see if sewed or on with mechanical fasteners. Recent scrolls (less than 40 years) are glued down to the body.

Also check the hardware at the top that holds the hang cord. Old ones are screwed on, newer ones have pound in prongs, (less then 40 years) or the cord is glued into the fabric as it rolls over the top hang bar.

Picture.. is it paint on silk or paint on rice/silkspan paper.

Don't let yellowing fool you. I have some ancient looking scrolls that were made in the 60's and 70's.

Beautiful scroll and flower. Congrats on the winning bid.

Al
 

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RyanFrye

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Hi Ryan,

180 years...probably not

Check on the ends of the bottom hang bar. If they unscrew as plastic caps it was probably made in the 1960's or 70's. There are thousands of these out there if it was.

also check the scroll stiffners at the top (the additional fabric bands) check to see if sewed or on with mechanical fasteners. Recent scrolls (less than 40 years) are glued down to the body.

Also check the hardware at the top that holds the hang cord. Old ones are screwed on, newer ones have pound in prongs, (less then 40 years) or the cord is glued into the fabric as it rolls over the top hang bar.

Picture.. is it paint on silk or paint on rice/silkspan paper.

Don't let yellowing fool you. I have some ancient looking scrolls that were made in the 60's and 70's.

Beautiful scroll and flower. Congrats on the winning bid.

Al

Thanks Al,

Those are all great directions. When I get it in the mail (could be several weeks) I'll post again and let you know what I find.

Ryan
 

Mark

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Ryan,
I like your scroll very much. I believe that you can learn many things from them that may be applied to Bonsai.
Your choice of scrolls gives me an indication of fine taste. I look forward to a post of a formal display in the future.

Best Regards,
Mark
 

RyanFrye

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Ryan,
I like your scroll very much. I believe that you can learn many things from them that may be applied to Bonsai.
Your choice of scrolls gives me an indication of fine taste. I look forward to a post of a formal display in the future.

Best Regards,
Mark

Thank you Mark. I have much to learn when it comes to formal displays...but we'll see.;)
 
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Check on the ends of the bottom hang bar. If they unscrew as plastic caps it was probably made in the 1960's or 70's. There are thousands of these out there if it was.
Keep in mind that the scroll itself may have been placed on a modern hanger, in this case the hang bars will not be an indicator of age.

also check the scroll stiffners at the top (the additional fabric bands) check to see if sewed or on with mechanical fasteners. Recent scrolls (less than 40 years) are glued down to the body.


Also check the hardware at the top that holds the hang cord. Old ones are screwed on, newer ones have pound in prongs, (less then 40 years) or the cord is glued into the fabric as it rolls over the top hang bar.

See my comment above.




The thing to look at is the actual painting itself. Look for signatures (chops), the paper, and the technique. Could you post a picture of the art work itself closeup, or a scan?
 

milehigh_7

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I don't know if it holds true for East Asian languages but for many languages in the world actual stylistic differences in text is a very accurate dating technique. In some cases in ancient texts it is accurate to 50 years. This is the case with the dead sea scrolls and other documents.
 

RyanFrye

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I just received the scroll in the mail. It is even better in person. It is in great condition if it really is 180 years old. The roller ends are wooden. It looks like it is paper on silk.

Here is a close up of the painting again.
 

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TheSteve

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I like it. These things are best judged in person and I would take it to an appraiser near you to see what it really is. Pictures are great and people love to help but you want to be sure.
 

Smoke

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Keep in mind that the scroll itself may have been placed on a modern hanger, in this case the hang bars will not be an indicator of age.


What...? So a guy posts that scroll is 180 years old and it would be alright with you to buy it based on that info only to find out it had been re-hung using methods from 2009. Why would you even bring this up?

Oh thats right the world is full of liars, cheats and thieves. Anything for an opposing view ehh?
 

RyanFrye

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According to the seller the painter is SEISEIIN KANO. He is one of the most famous KANO-HA painter.

Can anyone make sense of who this is or what a "Kano-Ha" painter is?
 

milehigh_7

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Al have I ever told you that you have beautiful trees? :D
 
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What...? So a guy posts that scroll is 180 years old and it would be alright with you to buy it based on that info only to find out it had been re-hung using methods from 2009. Why would you even bring this up?

Oh thats right the world is full of liars, cheats and thieves. Anything for an opposing view ehh?

I brought it up because scrolls are often changed, in fact many now are attached to the backing in such a manner that they can be changed, common practice, especially with kakejiku, but almost never with byōbu or shohekiga.
I have no idea how old the scroll is, neither do you, but I do know that it is the actual painting itself that is in question, not the rod (ikugi), end knobs (jiku), or backing. The truth is that many antique scrolls do not automatically come with the hanger. Another truth is that often the hang bars and the backing have nothing to do with the actual age of the painting itself, in many cases.

Yes, it would be alright to buy an antique scroll that is on a modern hanger, its not the hanger that is being bought or sold, it is the painting itself.

I also know that a close up of the calligraphy and the chop would help any one who does know about such things date the painting.
 
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