Softwood Cuttings - Browning & Dropping Leaves Mean Automatic Fail?

[エドガー]

For softwood cuttings (taken late spring or early summer, late May or early June), does browning and dropping of leaves (but still green stem/branch/cutting) mean an automatic Fail? Or, do you just let them be and hope for the best?

Asking because I started some Ume cuttings last weekend, and in only a few days, all their leaves are browning already. Never seen browning that fast before. Also, some of my other cuttings are starting to brown/drop leaves.

The current state of my other cuttings...
Nanking & kurume azaleas, 4 weeks in, 50% have browning/dropping leaves and 50% green leaves, but all still green stems.
Katsura maple, 4 weeks in, finally starting to drop/brown leaves but still slightly green leaves, all still green stems.
Red Dragon maple, 3 weeks in, all still have very healthy red leaves and stems.
Katsura maple, 2 weeks in, all still green leaves and stems.
Kiyohime maple, 2 weeks in, 50% have browning/dropping leaves and 50% green leaves, but all still green stems.
Shishigashira maple, 2 weeks in, all still have very healthy green leaves and stems.
Ume, 5 days in, All have browned leaves already, but all still green stems.

 

[Lorax7]

In my experience, yes, once they start showing visible signs that they’re going downhill it’s already too late to turn it around. However, my experience with cuttings is not extensive, so others may be able to offer a clearer picture.

 

[エドガー]

Darn.. that means I got a super duper low success rate

Guess I have much much better luck with San Jose junipers, lol

 

[Shibui]

Sometimes dropping leaves is just a sign that you have left too many on the cuttings. Sometimes cuttings just shed excess leaves so they can survive.
Don’t give up hope yet. While there is green there is still a chance.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Asking because I started some Ume cuttings last weekend, and in only a few days, all their leaves are browning already.

throw them out, plant new ones in their place! This happened because of de-hydration. At this stage, figuring out the problem is easy. You know its not the roots. The issue be can lack of humidity, or overheating.

attached are 4 ume cuttings i took around may 22. from 6am to 8pm, they are misted for 15 seconds every 15 minutes, with a heavier 45 second mist every hour on the hour. no watering from 8pm to 6am. attached is a picture of the cheap 'chamber' i use. The humidifier is a cool mist humidifier (don't use ultrasonic).

When the sun is out, this little thing can climb to 36C (97F) very quickly, in which case I leave the front door complete open (as it is in the picture) because you ideally want cool humid air and arm soil (cool humid arm to prevent quick dehydration, warm soil to stimulate root growth). When the door is open, it is not possible to maintain 100% humidity, so faultless watering (as described above) and afternoon shade become crucial. wind also becomes an issue when the door is open - the air gets cooler, but dryer

You're in california, so a shade cloth is probably crucial!

last weekend

as an aside, my ume passed the ideal window for taking cuttings about 3-4 weeks ago. I suspect yours did before mine! the odds are against you at this point (the stage of the tree, and the weather!) so don't blame yourself for the brown leaves!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Green stem = faint hope
Brown stem = no hope

There is a reason ume are not available everywhere, for almost free. Cuttings need a more specialized set up like what @derek7745 did. Not impossibly complicated, but more sophisticated than a pot of sphagnum, stuck in a plastic bag.

 

[エドガー]

For the ones still with green/red leaves that are 2-4 weeks in... when should I start seeing new growth and when should they start making roots?

 

[エドガー]

You're in california, so a shade cloth is probably crucial!

Very clever and nice setup!

All of my cuttings are in full shade and shaded all day long (no direct sun at all), in a concave corner area around my house next to an AC exhaust unit (the AC exh. unit isn't being turned on).
Sometimes I think I should put them in a brighter location. I have a nice area next to a north-facing brick-wall that only receives morning sun, from dawn to 11am.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

Sometimes I think I should put them in a brighter location

absolutely! cuttings are stimulated by strong light! Some people even add supplemental lighting, in addition to the sun!! some people even run the lights all night at a certain point!

but we are late in the year, and putting your cuttings in direct sun will likely burn them. make a note in your calendar for spring 2020 to make sure you get an early start

 

[エドガー]

Ahhhh, okay!!! I always felt my current location is way too shaded! I will put them next to that wall today! (north facing wall... only dawn to 11am sun, then fully shaded the rest of the day).

 

[エドガー]

For the ones still with green/red leaves that are 2-4 weeks in... when should I start seeing new growth and when should they start making roots?

I see 2-3 Kiyohime cuttings with very tiny microscopic buds starting to very-slightly grow.
Katsura, not too sure, but I think I see some new tiny buds.
Azalea, 2-3 that had baby tiny leaves when cuttings were taken, started getting a little bigger.. then stopped getting bigger when I put them in that aforesaid concave-corner area around my house with all-day Full shade. I hope the move today to the brighter (morning sun only) area will help them out.
Can't really see any new buds nor growth on any of the other cuttings yet. Maybe they're there, maybe just too small visually, atm.

 

[Shibui]

Best not to focus just on buds. Buds and new shoots are both a good sign but not always indication of success. Many cuttings can used stored resources to make new leaves but no roots so they die later. Roots showing at the bottom of the pot is the best sign for success.

 

[エドガー]

Best not to focus just on buds. Buds and new shoots are both a good sign but not always indication of success. Many cuttings can used stored resources to make new leaves but no roots so they die later. Roots showing at the bottom of the pot is the best sign for success.

Yeah, very true.
I planted 2 persimmon hardwood cuttings Sept 2018... and this spring 2019 (March) the buds grew out fresh green growth, only 1" long though, then dried off a few weeks after that. I later unburied them 2-3 months later and saw they had no roots at all.

I use individual 2.5" square pots now (3.5" deep)... so I don't need to separate them nor disturb any roots... and so I can just leave them in there for 1-2 years to gain strength (at least, for the ones that make it, I hope).

 

[エドガー]

Seems like I'm having lot of failures. I did 6-8 cuttings each of - katsura maple, kiyo hime, shishigashira, red dragon, hino crimson azalea, nanking cherry.

I'm 6-8 weeks in so far (depending on which), and only a very few are still green and only 1-2 has tiny new fresh growth:
2-3 shishigarshira still have green leaves but no new growth (I already know these are almost impossible to grow from cuttings).
All katsura and kiyohime have dropped their leaves by now and no new growth, except 1 kiyohime that still has original green leaves and I think maaaybe new tiny growth (unsure if it's new). The rest, no original leaves anymore, but I noticed some of them still have green stems.
All red dragon are dried up stems and no leaves, but 1 seems to have red leaves still (I heard these don't grow from cuttings either).
All my azaleas have dried up and died. They were very green and seemed promising the first 4 weeks... but after that, they dried up.
3-4 nanking have green leaves still, and 1 definitely has new bright green fresh growth finally, just this week. Yay!!

So.... 1/40 success rate so far. Lol

I had much better luck with San Jose juniper cuttings, before this attempt with all these deciduous softwood cuttings. I got 11/20 success rate with the San Jose.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I'm sorry to hear this

you should have substantial success with katsura and kiyo hime! they are considered 'easy', when the conditions are right. humidity and regular misting are key! Is this something you have been controlling/monitoring?

they also need light! Did you end up transferring them into the light as per posts #8-10 above?

if i were you, i would re-try those maples next spring, in direct light but under a shade cloth, in a cheap tent like mine (i paid about $20) which retains humidity, with some cheap misters and 1/4" tubing

my propagation adventure starts at post #264 right up until my post recent posts. i tried to be as thorough as possible for my own records, but maybe you might find some of the details helpful :

My Maples in Montreal

-- After a long drive to his garden, I finally had the honour of shaking the hand of Bill Valavanis. Bill happily shared information about the history and development of his impressive trees. It's difficult to describe just how incredible this experience was. I paid close attention to trunk...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Paulpash]

Softwood cuttings of maples are more prone to failure than semi hardwood. Fungus seems to get em . Bright position but out of direct sunlight has worked best for me under a clear propagation dome. I think you've seen the thread where I posted pics of those Arakawa cuttings so I won't bore you with substrates. Better luck next time - look for harder wood .

 

[エドガー]

Yes, I re-transferred them to a good morning-lit spot, I also manually misted every few hours or whenever I had time. It's very dry weather in SoCal and also very alkaline water, so maybe those are the reasons.

I probably won't re-try cuttings with my very very low success rate. Instead, I will try and stick with air-layers.
I've done air-layers on a very old, 20-30yo, garden juniper before, with a 2/2 success rate. So, I am more confident doing air-layers and happier to get a much bigger plant as well. Also, air-layers are generally known to be much much easier than cuttings.

 

[エドガー]

Yeah... fungus seemed to kill mine.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@Paulpash got a link? would love to see/learn and haven't come across your thread in my research

 

[Paulpash]

@derek7745 just contributing to another thread. Here it is :

Taking cuttings from the second flush

All of the literature seems to be on taking cuttings from the first flush. Is there any reason not to try taking strong growth from later flushes? My beni maiko pushed some very strong shoots, more than 12". I was thinking these still need a couple of weeks to harden before cutting, what do...

www.bonsainut.com