Suggest me soil recommendation for training pine bonsai

[leatherback]

Hi Anthony,

Sorry to hear you disagree. I based my post on my experience with bark. Not about what other people wrote on a forum 20 years ago.

I put two bags of bark in my substrate a few years back. And when I sifted my soil re-used after 2 years, the majority was still there.

I would be curious to see your bonsai-ready-for-exhibition-in-uder-10-years. For sure, this is something only ni the tropics. Growth speed being what I get here, after 10 years you might just have your trunk.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi Anthony,

Sorry to hear you disagree. I based my post on my experience with bark. Not about what other people wrote on a forum 20 years ago.

I put two bags of bark in my substrate a few years back. And when I sifted my soil re-used after 2 years, the majority was still there.

I would be curious to see your bonsai-ready-for-exhibition-in-uder-10-years. For sure, this is something only ni the tropics. Growth speed being what I get here, after 10 years you might just have your trunk.

I think it depends on what kind of bark you are using. I think sometimes the references about using bark are more second hand information from those who think anything organic is wrong relayed from some source but not personal experience.

 

[KeithE]

Wish I could remember a source of info from last week, let alone 30 years ago. Glad to hear bark is worthless and other square peg 'facts' being smashed into round holes. I used pine bark for years in zone 9a/b without issue. Brent Waltson has used pine bark with perlite for decades at his nursery, growing thousands of healthy trees. So we have several growers with successful experience, and others with second hand info.

 

[Kendo]

I think it depends on what kind of bark you are using. I think sometimes the references about using bark are more second hand information from those who think anything organic is wrong relayed from some source but not personal experience.

My thinking is that some people are using organic fertilizer. Hai This is to control timeline of organic buildup. Hai This is why not using bark tree in soils. Hai Hai We don't need it. Hai

 

[Vance Wood]

My thinking is that some people are using organic fertilizer. Hai This is to control timeline of organic buildup. Hai This is why not using bark tree in soils. Hai Hai We don't need it. Hai

This my be right in your way of thinking but I have used every conceivable combination of soil components and always trees do better with varying degrees of composted Pine bark mulch in the soil mix. It has nothing to do with retaining moisture and everything to do with providing an element for the growth of beneficial micro-organisms. I try to provide a natural like soil mix not an artificial medium that will grow nothing unless I am constantly adding this, that and something else all of the time.

You wrote: My thinking is that some people are using organic fertilizer. This is to control timeline of organic buildup. What do you mean by this, it almost makes no sense? What in your way of thinking is organic buildup?

 

[Anthony]

Vance.

I add on - 99 % of the mature tree's roots are in nthe first 3'
of the soil.
Additionally, the first 3' has 8% organic material.[ observe
the effect here with the 20 times factor of holding water ]

Secondly, if you use fermented oil seed cakes on the soil.
you are adding a % of composted material back into your
inorganic soil mix. As well as NPK plus micro-nutrients.

There maybe a positive effect on the clay decomposing out
of the akadama.

Thirdly. fish emulsion will also add organic material and
fertiliser.

I am not sure what happens with teabags and fermented
oil seed cakes???

Thanks again, for the expansion into the microbes.[ @Vance Wood ]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance.

I add on - 99 % of the mature tree's roots are in nthe first 3'
of the soil.
Additionally, the first 3' has 8% organic material.[ observe
the effect here with the 20 times factor of holding water ]

Secondly, if you use fermented oil seed cakes on the soil.
you are adding a % of composted material back into your
inorganic soil mix. As well as NPK plus micro-nutrients.

There maybe a positive effect on the clay decomposing out
of the akadama.

Thirdly. fish emulsion will also add organic material and
fertiliser.

I am not sure what happens with teabags and fermented
oil seed cakes???

Thanks again, for the expansion into the microbes.[ @Vance Wood ]
Good Day
Anthony

I think that as we try to make our trees look as natural as possible we forget that many times trees look the way they do because of what they are grown in. I think most people who have payed attention to some of the debates I have stumbled into on this forum about native Junipers that have ended in no one being able to provide a reasonable answer that reflects the evidence of our eyes. That evidence being that the native Junipers seem to produce one kind of foliage in the woods and another in the bonsai pot. In the woods they appear to look a good deal like Shimpaku, under cultivation they appear open and uninteresting. I believe that there is a reason that goes beyond what many "Masters" are telling us. These same masters do not use any organics in their soil mixes and do not pinch the new growth on these Junipers. Personally I believe that this is the reason, not some esoteric result from the change in environment, altitude and water disallowing the development of a natural growth pattern. I do not know this for sure but if I live to be 100 years old and stay sane, and can still grow bonsai I hope to get some native Junipers like the Utah Juniper, may favorite, and prove it.

 

[Kendo]

This my be right in your way of thinking but I have used every conceivable combination of soil components and always trees do better with varying degrees of composted Pine bark mulch in the soil mix.

SOme are using a lot of fertilizer on top of soils. We knowing that pine tree in basket is ok for 2 year if no the too much organic buildup, filling soils and choking root. Hai We are using the Mesh basket to keep air on root and to make easy for removal of organic building up in basket. He not happen. Hai Hai!! This we do not need to add the tree bark or the organic at this time. Hai SOme reason we may do this is if the time for care is little. Hai

Always in mind while make visit to some garden is that each craftsman is different vision. Hai We must come to respect that,,, but also we Know that tradition is forming from many generation of wisdom. Hai This wisdom is showing in our hand if the way is followed correctly. Hai Hai!!

Thank you discussion, Thank you.

 

[leatherback]

@Kendo .. Open, neutral question: Why do you put "hai" in every sentence? Does it have a meaning?

 

[M. Frary]

@Kendo .. Open, neutral question: Why do you put "hai" in every sentence? Does it have a meaning?

It means yes in Japanese.
Hes a yes man.

 

[Kendo]

@Kendo .. Open, neutral question: Why do you put "hai" in every sentence? Does it have a meaning?

This is the common for question. I have this for explaining tradition Japanese people for you. Hai

Thank you.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commun...orry-please-excuse-me-thank-you/#.W_BtguiQGUk

 

[Vance Wood]

This is the common for question. I have this for explaining tradition Japanese people for you. Hai

Thank you.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commun...orry-please-excuse-me-thank-you/#.W_BtguiQGUk

I guess the real question I have for you, seeing that you seem to consider you and yours as source authorities, would it be too rude for me to ask how many years you have been growing bonsai?

 

[leatherback]

OK. thx. Did not expect this on an English language forum

 

[Kendo]

I guess the real question I have for you, seeing that you seem to consider you and yours as source authorities, would it be too rude for me to ask how many years you have been growing bonsai?

First teaching was Great Grandfather born in 1891. In year for me was 1978. Hai Was 10 year at that time. Hai He sell the Agriculture products to farmer. Hai Like me he the craftsman for interest of the Bonsai Treasure. Hai He teaching me many old way. Hai I going to school, making department store design for the Federated. Hai My interest at that time was only looking or learning. I must working. No time. Hai I leaving Federated Stores and going to organic chemistry. My interested in the traditional garden is primary at this time. Hai

Bonsai Budo has many aspects. Training in the way is difficult for mastery. Hai You know how to grow from beginning to end and understanding of the middle is of great concern. Hai This is where craftsmen make choices based on many year of study, Hai If you can only measure success in growing tree in pot then aspect of bonsai escapes. Hai We must take our experiences and create vision. Hai This is organic in nature, so we must understand both the needed and unnecessary to make true bonsai. Hai

I see many thinking on internet bonsai that is not true. Hai 1000年の評判は、1時間の従事によって決定されることがあります

 

[wireme]

Bark = 35 to 40 % of it's weight in ability to hold water -
e.g 10 gms bark can hold 3.5 gms to 4.0 gms of water.

Additionally will compost in as little as 3 months and will
hold too much water.

Remember compst holds 20 times weight in water.
e,g 50 gms of compost holds 1000 gms of water ] 1 litre ]

So 50 gms bark first holds around 20 gms of water.
composts and becomes 50 gms x 20 times = 1000 gms of water.
Plus you have to deal with the composting process and
new watering habits.
Good Day
Anthony

Hi Anthony.

I think you are overestimating the amount of water that bark will hold.

50 grams of bark will not equal 50 grams of compost, there will be a loss of mass during the composting process.

Also I was just reading something, check out the screen shot.


Very interesting article by the way. I think someone should link to it and start a thread for discussion, but here it is, check it out. (I’ve only given it one very quick read through).

https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JARS/v36n2/v36n2-hoitink.htm

Finally I have used it a lot and been satisfied with results and so have many others, never any problems with soils staying too wet due to bark as far as I’ve been able to tell.

 

[wireme]

maybe in the tropics. here it holds 2 years at least..

Me too, I’ve found it appearing intact after 5 years. Then it gets sifted and reused...

But I guess it depends on what we consider to be “composted”. My understanding is that the cellulose decomposes quite quickly ( can be 4 months I just read) but the lignin is highly resistant to decomposition. Most bark is high in lignin and low in cellulose so when the cellulose is gone it’s considered stabilized. I guess we could call it composted at that point but it still holds structure for a long time after that.

 

[ysrgrathe]

1000年の評判は、1時間の従事によって決定されることがあります

用土によって「十人十色」でしょう。

 

[Anthony]

@wireme ,

I think I would be afraid of composting in the pot.
Composting is a top of the soil process and I am
not sure what would happen to roots within
the process.

Plus using - peat moss Canadian - it still has to
compost. Not sure with Sphagnum peat.
So it finely powders.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Then I might wonder, is that just glorified - Hydroponics.
Not a believer in hydroponics.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Machine says time limit for - Edit.
Hence some repetition.

Then I might wonder, is that just glorified - Hydroponics.
Not a believer in hydroponics.

It is also obvious that the exterior of the bark will compost
and unless weighed, and checked microscopically, one will
not see it.

You will also have to bare root to observe all of the soil.

The idea with composted material is one can calculate the water
needs of a tree. [ the other benefit is microbes ]
Plus using a third soil component - red brick [ porous ] one can
keep the use of compost to a limit of 3 parts out of ten.

Watering for down here is - during the dry season of no rain - 6 months
or so - twice in the morning - once in the evening to refresh - no water
on the leaves as they go into the night.

By the way we take written notes, so it is not memory.
Good Day
Anthony