Tested My Water - High PH & Hardness

[MadMensch]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie here on the forums as well as a beginner in Bonsai (since Jan). Over the past few months I've noticed what seems to be lime scale build up on the trunk and leaves of my sweet plum. To be fair I'm not sure if i've just started noticing details of my Bonsai that were already there, or if the scale has built up quickly since it's been in my care.

To find out, I decided to test my water today using a First Alert test kit and found that I have extremely hard water and high Ph (8.5). I'm a little concerned since 8.5 seems to be on the high-end regardless of species.

Does anyone here have experience with these levels and can possibly offer a solution that resolved your issue?

Thank you in advance!

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ph-is-it-relevant.27683/unread

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

Before I moved here, I had a nursery with very hard and alkaline water. Once it went up to 10 and was regularly 8.5 to 9.
I had no trouble growing anything (including azalea) as rainfall and acidifying fertilizers (mainly urea N in the form of Osmocote) balanced it out. Undercover I had build up of Calcium carbonate on leaves and probably in the pot so I occasionally used sulphuric acid to bring the pH down to about 6. You should consider using some material with a strong buffer capacity such as peat at least for some species.

 

[MadMensch]

Before I moved here, I had a nursery with very hard and alkaline water. Once it went up to 10 and was regularly 8.5 to 9.
I had no trouble growing anything (including azalea) as rainfall and acidifying fertilizers (mainly urea N in the form of Osmocote) balanced it out. Undercover I had build up of Calcium carbonate on leaves and probably in the pot so I occasionally used sulphuric acid to bring the pH down to about 6. You should consider using some material with a strong buffer capacity such as peat at least for some species.

Thank you for this. I do use Kanuma soil on my azalea to try and balance it out.

Would you recommend using a product like PH down in my water mix or would just using peat in my soils be preferable?

Thanks again for your feedback

 

[MichaelS]

Thank you for this. I do use Kanuma soil on my azalea to try and balance it out.

Would you recommend using a product like PH down in my water mix or would just using peat in my soils be preferable?

Thanks again for your feedback

I don't know what pH down is. It's probably some kind of acid. I would try using the acid fertilizers and perhaps peat or similar before resorting to acidifying water. You can also use dusting sulphur on the media to bring the pH down slowly over time. (check for rates) Or you can select plants according t their requirements.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Temecula is just like Orange County... except the water is worse I live right across the Santa Anas from you.

So there are really only two reasonable solutions for our nasty hard water:
(1) Use a reverse osmosis filter.
(2) Get a water softener. If you are using the water for trees, make sure you use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride to recharge the media.

Decent reverse osmosis units can be had for a few hundred $$$, but at this price point they are really best for limited use (20 gallons per day or less) which is why many homes use them in their kitchen for drinking water and ice cubes. You can use a small filter like this to fill and keep topped off a "rain barrel" in your yard to water some of your more sensitive trees with.

Whole house water softeners will run you somewhere in the $1500 - $2000 range, plus you need a plumber to install them. Make sure the plumber knows you want all your exterior water to run through the softener as well. And you can say goodby to water spots on your glasses or dishes, water spots on your showers, etc.

Both of these solutions require periodic maintenance - the R/O filter will require new cartridges about every 6 months, and the water softener will require you to purchase bags of potassium chloride from your CostCo / Home Depot.

 

[MadMensch]

Temecula is just like Orange County... except the water is worse I live right across the Santa Anas from you.

So there are really only two reasonable solutions for our nasty hard water:
(1) Use a reverse osmosis filter.
(2) Get a water softener. If you are using the water for trees, make sure you use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride to recharge the media.

Decent reverse osmosis units can be had for a few hundred $$$, but at this price point they are really best for limited use (20 gallons per day or less) which is why many homes use them in their kitchen for drinking water and ice cubes. You can use a small filter like this to fill and keep topped off a "rain barrel" in your yard to water some of your more sensitive trees with.

Thanks for chiming in! I used to work in Rancho Santa Margarita so I used to take the Ortega every day, I'm sure that's close to your area. Anyway regarding the R/O unit, there is a 4 or 5 stage unit that I've been eyeing at Costco for a while. If I bought something like that just for watering my Bonsai would I have to supplement the water with minerals since I would be stripping the water clean?

 

[Starfox]

Funny you post this, I did the same test yesterday with practically the same results but I am almost certain there are times when there are massive chlorine and salt dumps through our water as well.

We are waiting for the kitchen to be re-done and then are going to add both units mentioned, the salt/potassium filter at point of entry and R/O for drinking water and if possible outside. The problem though is so far I have yet to come across the potassium here.
Until then in the summer months I collect the run off from our a/c unit which is good enough as I don't have too many trees just yet.

 

[just.wing.it]

Off topic, I know...but RO water always makes me think of some of the commercial ice machines I work on....
You can't use RO water in a commercial ice machine because it's too clean! The sensors can't sense it!
We actually have customers with RO water at their labs, and they have to add things back to the water so the ice machines will function.

 

[M. Frary]

Off topic

Me too.
I saw high hardness in the title and looked to see if I could contribute something.
You know how my mind works.

 

[crust]

Temecula is just like Orange County... except the water is worse I live right across the Santa Anas from you.

So there are really only two reasonable solutions for our nasty hard water:
(1) Use a reverse osmosis filter.
(2) Get a water softener. If you are using the water for trees, make sure you use potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride to recharge the media.

Decent reverse osmosis units can be had for a few hundred $$$, but at this price point they are really best for limited use (20 gallons per day or less) which is why many homes use them in their kitchen for drinking water and ice cubes. You can use a small filter like this to fill and keep topped off a "rain barrel" in your yard to water some of your more sensitive trees with.

Whole house water softeners will run you somewhere in the $1500 - $2000 range, plus you need a plumber to install them. Make sure the plumber knows you want all your exterior water to run through the softener as well. And you can say goodby to water spots on your glasses or dishes, water spots on your showers, etc.

Both of these solutions require periodic maintenance - the R/O filter will require new cartridges about every 6 months, and the water softener will require you to purchase bags of potassium chloride from your CostCo / Home Depot.

Be sure to research the pro and cons of using softeners to clean water using the Pot clor has its consequences for containerized trees. I recommend if you use a RO filter use regular softened water to feed it. Also, keep in mind using exclusively rain and RO water on containerized trees has unique requirements as far as micronutrients needs--some people actually blend well water with the pure water to avoid this. Anyway, I am dealing with a micro nutrient/mineral I have developed using pure water right now.

 

[Velodog2]

Good for you for testing your water! But my experience and knowledge says that the important thing to check is alkalinity, which is not the same as ph but has to do with the availability of carbonate I believe. If your water is hard it may have high alkalinity, which is Very Bad for plants.

If you have a large operation you can fix it by adding/injecting acid to the water, or if you don't have too many trees do like I do and collect rainwater. The problem with relying on rain to buffer the soil occurs when it doesn't. Rain that is, especially for a long time. I finally began looking for a problem when after many years of losing more trees than anyone else anyway, virtually half my collection died the spring after we'd had a two month drought the autumn before and I'd relied on tap water that whole time. A large bonsai nursery nearby most of you know and love clued me in. They had huge losses until they began using acid injection systems.

After switching to rain water my losses are down to reasonable levels, and far lower than ever before.

So test and fix your water situation now. Otherwise your trees will never be as healthy as they otherwise might be.

 

[cmeg1]

I read organic ferts make soil acidic,especially ones that use every watering liquid organics

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Sounds like time for another reference work...

So much misinformation on the Internet; the first 20 articles I looked at had incorrect, incomplete, or inappropriate information for people interested in water chemistry and container plants.

As a pool owner I do the pH/alkalinity/hardness/salinity dance on an almost daily basis to keep our water and salt chlorination system in balance. Then with my years of keeping reef aquariums, I had completely different water chemistry issues - not so much with maintaining salinity, but the propensity of the water to drop in alkalinity and hardness as corals and other marine invertebrates would take up calcium for use in their skeletons in the form of calcium carbonate.

To be honest most of the articles I have read are long on the theory, and very short on practice.

Let me see if I can scare together some resources for us to discuss.

 

[Eddy]

I just collect rainwater, so I don't have to worry all about city/well water. We have a well and it test really really high in calcium and it's noticeable on our dishes. So I don't use it.

 

[JudyB]

Be sure to research the pro and cons of using softeners to clean water using the Pot clor has its consequences for containerized trees. I recommend if you use a RO filter use regular softened water to feed it. Also, keep in mind using exclusively rain and RO water on containerized trees has unique requirements as far as micronutrients needs--some people actually blend well water with the pure water to avoid this. Anyway, I am dealing with a micro nutrient/mineral I have developed using pure water right now.

Can you please tell me what you're using for your micro/mineral supplement my dear crust? After installing a really good iron filter to get my water from turning everything orange, now I have the opposite issue, and am starting to have iron and perhaps magnesium deficiencies on some of my more sensitive trees. I'm trying out a liquid (once it arrives) called Botanicare Cal Mag plus 2-2-0 that has iron and trace minerals. I am wondering if a granular would be better or if the liquid would be more precise. And I'm also wondering how often this should be applied in our non-organic soils. I've looked around but can't settle on what might work best, so am hoping you can turn me on to what's working for you...
Also now that the rust is all gone, I'm noticing some limescale starting to appear on the leaves... Going to get an electronic descaler, they're pretty cheap.

I would be interested in anyone chiming in who has had success with correcting similar issues, Thanks!

 

[milehigh_7]

A few things I use. First I am discovering what a problem mineral deficiency is. So many issues I chalked up to other things in the past are simply improper ph causing problems with mineral uptake. I don't have the charts in front of my right now but at various PH levels, different minerals become more or less available to the plant.

The main thing I use to drop PH is elemental sulfur. In addition to dropping PH, all nitrogen-fixing plants must have it and are often deficient in pot culture. That's something new I learned. Also, those of us that use DE in our pots really need a calcium supplement.

You can get a great shot of Sulfur, Potassium, and Magnesium from a product called Sul-Po-Mag which I have mentioned before boosts the Magnesium without the salinity increase of Epsom salts.

I also use a local product called 'Iron Worker' that has calcium and several other trace elements.

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

The simplest and cheapest solution is to cut the tap water with distilled to your desired level. A 50/50 mix should be fine. Mix in a bucket, pour in a watering can and away you go! Chlorine is much more of a concern than water hardness/pH, and our have 0 chlorine.

 

[milehigh_7]

The simplest and cheapest solution is to cut the tap water with distilled to your desired level. A 50/50 mix should be fine. Mix in a bucket, pour in a watering can and away you go! Chlorine is much more of a concern than water hardness/pH, and our have 0 chlorine.

That's not the cheapest or simplest when you have about 1200 trees lol!

 

[milehigh_7]

@JudyB I can't recommend my new book 'Abiotic Disorders of Landscape Plants' highly enough. I have learned so much about diagnosing different issues. Such as which mineral deficiency causes which problem and which plants are more or less susceptible. I'm really enjoying it. It was fairly cheap as well.