The “clearance plant, cheapo” thread

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I already have a thread on this, but whatever. Originally priced @$120 Acer Freemanni. Got it for $44. Had a lot of die back I'm guessing in early spring, maybe a late frost? Anyways it back budded well since then. Problem is it has as much movement and taper as a broomstick. I started the trunk wounding method of poking it with a knife to induce callous taper. I'll probably trunk chop it and ground layer it in the spring if the roots suck, which they probably do.

8035944D-56AC-4804-92CB-0290739A0D9D.jpegB1332000-3940-4059-8F0E-067FE87815DD.jpeg44D6EBF5-E73C-4E96-810D-8B64280EA1B0.jpeg
 

Katie0317

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Can you share how you will create taper after you chop it? Also, I've never heard of callous taper, can you tell more about it?
 

Forsoothe!

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Japanese Maple has smooth bark, so the words, "...poking it with a knife to induce callous taper..." falls upon deaf ears. I'm of a mind that anything offered, anywhere, to "speed up" anything bonsai is snake oil. GIGO. Nothing is as easy as it first appears, and short cuts almost always deliver less than promised. Bonsai is an art that you practice for the rest of your life. Most of us only have bonsai because we want to work on them, and I view hurrying up the process a lot like going to a fine dinning establishment and asking for something quick to go with our Beaujolais Nouveau. In August. When we're 16 years old.
 

Katie0317

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Thank you for that. Great imagery.
Can you talk about how best to create taper? I imagine with wire but I look at Japanese Maples (for instance) on Ebay and elsewhere and wonder at what point can you still wire? Some of the trees show calipers and the trunk is 3 inches wide. I know the ones i'm looking at came from air layering, but at what point can you effect the taper of the trunk and at what point is it 'what it is'? Thank you.
 

Forsoothe!

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Taper is the result of growth over time. "Time" being the operative word. If you substitute any other word for taper, like wealth, knowledge, wisdom, skill, ad infinitum desirables, and ask for a quick way to skip over what the normal process is for everybody else, the snake oil salesmen will appear as if by magic. We old guys have all the big trees we want so it may be cheap for us to tell young whippersnappers to be patient, but we have been there and done that, wrong, so we know that the best way just happens to be the patient way. Yes, by all means collect, beg, buy, borrow or steal stock of all sizes and use all methods you can to build an inventory of trees, but also notice along the way that a lot of defects are built into trees that have been rushed to completion making it necessary to spend more time on correcting/hiding those short-comings. The very best trees of all species are those started by seed by bonsaiists for themselves, not withstanding special collected trees. "Special" being the operative word here. Lots of collected trees are deficient, ugly, unremarkable, or all three. Club auctions are good sources for buying larger, older trees that have become unwanted by someone for whatever reason. I know that I have sold trees that I couldn't do anything productive with because my mindset at the time was the tree couldn't evolve to what I originally wanted and I wanted out. In a few cases it was a mistake. I also have bought some trees that were owned by someone who let them go without proper training after they had peaked. From this in 2015...
Aa 092415 auction.JPG
Branches much too long and all the foliage at the ends. Nobody wanted it more than me for $65.
Aa 061716 1st wire.JPG
Put the branches into better locations with long term (2 years) God-awful wiring inside vinyl tubing.
Aa 082921 Peoples Choice.JPG
Six years later back into the form that someone else had it one or two or more owners ago. Time spent in a good process gives good results. The same amount or more time spent on damaged goods or poor prospects is wasted. The accounting can begin at day one or at the end of the process. If you look at the prospects with a properly jaundiced eye in the beginning you can avoid spending a lot of time on something that amounts to nothing. In other words: don't assess just the good points of potential stock. Look critically at all the bad points and make a guess, -a hard number, an amount of time and expertise it will take to fix all the bad points, -which are more important than the good points, before you collect, beg, borrow, buy or steal potential stock.
 

Katie0317

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WoW...I just read that aloud to my husband who's working but listened to this. I think of our time at good quality bonsai nurseries (Artisan's and Schley's) and I made one poor choice and I realized it within the week. My very first purchase...A beautiful water jasmine, a Barbados cherry and a Chinese elm. I asked why people didn't like the S shape and now I can't stand it. We lived in China and the thought of masses of workers twisting trunks into an S for 'crazy Americans' made me feel like I was back there again. In the spring I'm going to chop it but had I not bought it I could not be concerned with it and not have to deal with it for the next 10 years plus years. I should put it on Ebay. I may.

We'll be going to D & L nursery soon which I understand is the best place to buy anywhere in central Florida based on selection and price. I will have this is my mind when I look at their trees! Fortunately, I hadn't eaten when we went to Schley's because we hadn't planned on going and I only bought a small pixie bougie seedling for 7.00. My husband bought a large sea hibiscus pre-bonsai which in Asia they use exclusively for shohin. Jason gave my husband outstanding instruction on how to do that but my husband doesn't want to make it a shohin. His choice. They have beautiful trees but I was too tired and hungry to think straight and I knew it. I feel like I just got the best advice I've gotten thus far and I'm going to be more critical of trees than I've been in the past.
Thank you for that.

As for the tree...It's exquisite. That was worth whatever time and effort it took! I have to ask...What's the story on the vinyl tube wire you used? 65.00? That seems so inexpensive to me. It had very nice nebari even then. Why would you wire nebari? Is the shohin tree next to it the same type of maple? I like the way the large one is styled.

I may bug you before I buy a Japanese maple. I'm determined to have one although I'm in 9b and I've read they can grow here but will get more information before purchasing. Only very specific ones will grow here.

We've been invited to attend some club meetings but right now Florida is in a Covid crisis and we're going to wait before attending any meetings.

I should print out what you wrote and keep it in my purse when we go to nurseries. I hope many people see what you wrote, particularly new people. Some are going to nurseries and buying cheap stuff to try and turn into bonsai. Most of it looks like a waste of time to me but it's just not the way I approach something. I'm sure there are a few treasures out there but I wonder if they wrote down all their purchases in a book...what would be the end game of that investment? Those bits and pieces will add up. It is an investment...Not just of money, but of time and energy. For me talking with a bonsai nursery owner is a tremendous opportunity to learn. I've found the two, well three actually...to be very gracious with their knowledge and Jason Schely is a natural teacher. I'd like to take a class from him.

Thank you again for taking the time to share that. May many 'grasshoppers' get it....Katie
 

hinmo24t

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Taper is the result of growth over time. "Time" being the operative word. If you substitute any other word for taper, like wealth, knowledge, wisdom, skill, ad infinitum desirables, and ask for a quick way to skip over what the normal process is for everybody else, the snake oil salesmen will appear as if by magic. We old guys have all the big trees we want so it may be cheap for us to tell young whippersnappers to be patient, but we have been there and done that, wrong, so we know that the best way just happens to be the patient way. Yes, by all means collect, beg, buy, borrow or steal stock of all sizes and use all methods you can to build an inventory of trees, but also notice along the way that a lot of defects are built into trees that have been rushed to completion making it necessary to spend more time on correcting/hiding those short-comings. The very best trees of all species are those started by seed by bonsaiists for themselves, not withstanding special collected trees. "Special" being the operative word here. Lots of collected trees are deficient, ugly, unremarkable, or all three. Club auctions are good sources for buying larger, older trees that have become unwanted by someone for whatever reason. I know that I have sold trees that I couldn't do anything productive with because my mindset at the time was the tree couldn't evolve to what I originally wanted and I wanted out. In a few cases it was a mistake. I also have bought some trees that were owned by someone who let them go without proper training after they had peaked. From this in 2015...

Branches much too long and all the foliage at the ends. Nobody wanted it more than me for $65.
View attachment 394877
Put the branches into better locations with long term (2 years) God-awful wiring inside vinyl tubing.

Six years later back into the form that someone else had it one or two or more owners ago. Time spent in a good process gives good results. The same amount or more time spent on damaged goods or poor prospects is wasted. The accounting can begin at day one or at the end of the process. If you look at the prospects with a properly jaundiced eye in the beginning you can avoid spending a lot of time on something that amounts to nothing. In other words: don't assess just the good points of potential stock. Look critically at all the bad points and make a guess, -a hard number, an amount of time and expertise it will take to fix all the bad points, -which are more important than the good points, before you collect, beg, borrow, buy or steal potential stock.
drying the ol buds off, back-left? tis the season coming up
 

AcerAddict

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Some are going to nurseries and buying cheap stuff to try and turn into bonsai. Most of it looks like a waste of time to me but it's just not the way I approach something.
I don't think there's anything wrong with going to a nursery (or Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.) and buying "cheap stuff" that may eventually get turned into bonsai. As with any hobby, practice makes perfect! Practicing with "entry level" material before moving on to the more expensive stuff is smart. We all would probably love to own a $3,000 or $5,000 tree, but have to start somewhere, right? I think most people would rather kill a $10 or $20 tree in the beginning instead of something costing hundreds or thousands of dollars that is decades old.

I also believe that part of it has to do with people wanting something right this minute as opposed to waiting any length of time. If you asked every bonsai beginner if they would rather have a $20 tree in their hands right now, or a $120 tree six months from now, I bet the majority would take the $20 tree because of the instant gratification it provides compared to saving up for something nicer.

Most of it looks like a waste of time to me but it's just not the way I approach something. I'm sure there are a few treasures out there but I wonder if they wrote down all their purchases in a book...what would be the end game of that investment? Those bits and pieces will add up. It is an investment...Not just of money, but of time and energy.
Bonsai is time, and time is money. They intersect like many things do. It may translate to "tree in a pot", but its key factor is time. Whether that time is spent by you, growing a tree from a seed, or spent by someone else, who sells you a tree they've been growing for a decade or more. It's all time. Only the parties involved can determine if the time was wasted or not. If you're happy with a tree and genuinely enjoy it, then that's time/money well-spent!

Considering my own bonsai-related purchases in the last 12 months, I'm close to $1,000 spent if not more, including tools, cut paste, pots, soil, etc. I've got about 20 trees/shrubs growing specifically for bonsai, ranging in cost from $7 to $325. The majority of that is younger material that will need at least a few more years in nursery pots or in the ground growing out and thickening the trunk before I would even consider putting it into a bonsai pot, but that's OK. Will ALL of it eventually become amazing bonsai? Definitely not. I'm sure I made some purchases that will turn out not being as great as I first thought they would be. However, it's all part of the learning curve and I'm OK with spending the time to see where it leads. That's how hobbies go. In the case of all my "cheap stuff", I'm happy saving my money and instead spending time.

On the complete flip-side of that, I'm going to my first bonsai show this December with a budget of probably $1,000 and the intention of coming home with two or three quality pre-bonsai trees. I feel that I'm ready to learn with and develop material that is many years old, and has already been loosely developed by someone else. In this case, I'm saving my own time by paying money for someone else's.

Both these approaches to the hobby are just fine in my book. Some people spend 10 years refurbishing a classic muscle car before they can drive it. Others go to a Mecum auction and spend $100,000 on someone else's hard work. Either method is just fine if you're happy in the end.
 

Forsoothe!

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Vinyl tubing is available at big box in a variety of sizes. Push the wire through and then wire the tree with it. It's almost impossible to mark the tree, even Fig, JM, or Boxwood, but you don't get the tight bends or the holding strength of just wire in-place. In my case I didn't need big moves,but knew that the wire needed to stay on a couple years to overcome the stiffness of old branches. I have marked so many branches over the years that I am now super-careful. Using vinyl tubing with wire inside once is a substitute for rewiring two or three times in a two year time frame. Vinyl tubing is also useful to slip around branches at sites that guy wires grab branches...
FGM guy wire & vinyl tubing.JPG
I have given-up guy wires on for less than two years. Larger branches need a couple cycles of growing and re-lignifying in a new position to overcome years of lignifying in a different position. Older boxwood fight tooth & nail any changes and can spring-back PDQ in a month or two with shorter periods under guy wires or wiring. Two years wired is no big deal in the grand scheme of things, especially if it works.
Bx S 051921 SQ.JPG
 

Katie0317

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@AcerAddict I completely understand how you feel and I don't think I did a good job of expressing what I meant. I apologize for that.

It makes sense that you don't want to learn and maybe fail on a 300.00 tree It also makes sense that we all learn more from our failures than our successes so far better to learn and fail on a less costly tree.

My commentary was genuinely NOT aimed at you personally and I'm sorry if I made it seem so. I was trying to learn on this thread too and asked a questiom and as a beginner was very impressed by the response by Forsoorhel. It made me think differently about my own purchases and purchases I'll make in the future. I didn't mean it as a judgement of you and it came off that way...I'm sorry for that.

I hope you have a fantastic time at the show in December, and hope you'll post pics of what you get! Do you have a wishlist or something specific in mind? I bet you can get a bargain if you find the right person at the right time. I'd keep what Forsoothel wrote in mind. I think he made a good point.

They say someone is a beginner for 2 years in bonsai and I'm impressed you're prepared to spend that kind of money in December but I understand the desire to spend 1000.00 on three high quality pre-bonsai trees. I'm not there yet but you've been at this a good bit longer than me and I'm sure when I get to the one year mark I'll feel exactly the same way...That's in part why I'm looking forward to seeing what 1000.00 can buy at a high end show. I bet you'll know your trees when you see them. Listen to your gut and have a great time...Katie
 

AcerAddict

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@AcerAddict I completely understand how you feel and I don't think I did a good job of expressing what I meant. I apologize for that.

It makes sense that you don't want to learn and maybe fail on a 300.00 tree It also makes sense that we all learn more from our failures than our successes so far better to learn and fail on a less costly tree.

My commentary was genuinely NOT aimed at you personally and I'm sorry if I made it seem so. I was trying to learn on this thread too and asked a questiom and as a beginner was very impressed by the response by Forsoorhel. It made me think differently about my own purchases and purchases I'll make in the future. I didn't mean it as a judgement of you and it came off that way...I'm sorry for that.

I hope you have a fantastic time at the show in December, and hope you'll post pics of what you get! Do you have a wishlist or something specific in mind? I bet you can get a bargain if you find the right person at the right time. I'd keep what Forsoothel wrote in mind. I think he made a good point.

They say someone is a beginner for 2 years in bonsai and I'm impressed you're prepared to spend that kind of money in December but I understand the desire to spend 1000.00 on three high quality pre-bonsai trees. I'm not there yet but you've been at this a good bit longer than me and I'm sure when I get to the one year mark I'll feel exactly the same way...That's in part why I'm looking forward to seeing what 1000.00 can buy at a high end show. I bet you'll know your trees when you see them. Listen to your gut and have a great time...Katie
No worries at all and certainly no need to apologize! It's always tough to convey tone with typed words compared to spoken. I was just adding my thoughts to the conversation. :)

Being the maple addict that I am, I'm certainly hoping to come home with a nice one of those from the bonsai show. Between landscape trees, potted patio trees and ones being grown for bonsai, I have 10 Japanese maples as it is, but there is always room for more! Other than that, we'll see what I come across at the vendor tables. With it being my first foray into "expensive" material, I think I'll have the best chance keeping something alive that grows well in NC already, so a Bald Cypress and Crape Myrtle are definitely on my watch list. I'm definitely looking forward to it, and will of course post some pictures after I get back. I'm relatively new to bonsai, but not to keeping plants/trees in general, so I'm ready to give something more demanding a try.

Anyway, sorry for the brief thread hijack folks. Carry on!
 

Katie0317

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No worries at all and certainly no need to apologize! It's always tough to convey tone with typed words compared to spoken. I was just adding my thoughts to the conversation. :)

Being the maple addict that I am, I'm certainly hoping to come home with a nice one of those from the bonsai show. Between landscape trees, potted patio trees and ones being grown for bonsai, I have 10 Japanese maples as it is, but there is always room for more! Other than that, we'll see what I come across at the vendor tables. With it being my first foray into "expensive" material, I think I'll have the best chance keeping something alive that grows well in NC already, so a Bald Cypress and Crape Myrtle are definitely on my watch list. I'm definitely looking forward to it, and will of course post some pictures after I get back. I'm relatively new to bonsai, but not to keeping plants/trees in general, so I'm ready to give something more demanding a try.

Anyway, sorry for the brief thread hijack folks. Carry on!
Do you keep an eye on Ebay? There are several varieties of all the ones you're looking and the price range is well...It's Ebay.

The #1 tree I want is a Japanese maple. There's only one or two that will grow in zone 9b so I need to be careful before I buy but it's my dream tree too! Hope you find something really wonderful!

We have some crepe myrtle trees on our property that we've never paid much attention too but I looked and there are some nice newer but with a lot of growth on them that we should dig up! I told my husband it could be our own yamidori project. I'm not sure it's really yamidori if you're digging it up from your own yard but regardless...It's a nice tree!

Good luck, and post pics when you get back. What's the name of the show?
 

AcerAddict

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Good luck, and post pics when you get back. What's the name of the show?
 

Eckhoffw

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Last one of the season! 🤣🤣
Ace hardware 40% off.
wasn’t thinking lilac, but that trunk!!
Had to swoop it up for 18$.
16CDFAE9-D3BF-4165-83BF-85CF7B6027DE.jpeg0E9413DA-67EF-4214-8628-862D6F794401.jpeg
Cut the pot down and got rid of the garbage only. 1366BE5D-6D2B-452E-8B3E-8B269FD27C18.jpeg
IDK, leaves are big, but it looks promising!
😁
 

NGski86

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3 bux from Meijer. Over wired cuz thats all I got right now.

In a Sorce pot.View attachment 398225
Nice! Meijer has been a good place to me. Picked up a bunch of things. It was right when they marked them down to 30% off or something and it wasn't working at the register but they were at some sale price already. When they adjusted the lady said aww screw it and just put the 30% on top of the sale price lol decent dwarf Alberta spruce like $9 lol
 
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