Thoughts on High PH?

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Since lurking around on the site again, I started reading some other threads regarding fungal issues/soil PH and it got me curious as to looking back into my city supply. When I first checked it a couple years back it sat right at 7. I've noticed since then it's jumped to 8+ on average.

So far, it doesn't look like it's affecting much, but then again I'm sure this is the kind of thing that builds up. Especially this time of year where my area isn't getting a ton of rain.

Currently, I water through a in line hose filter that basically just removes some chlorine but doesn't have much other impact. I fertilize stuff in development with granular like ozmocote, developing and finished bonsai with Dr earth life. Everything normally gets fish emulsion applied weekly during the growing seasons. I've removed most of the organics for the worst of summer coming up and will reapply after august.

Very long buildup there to ask: Barring the ability to address water solutions at the municipal or household filtration level,
Would it be wise to start running some acid loving plants fertilizer into my mix every so often to help balance out the pH? Or is this one of those mornings for overthinking things...
 

Bonsai Nut

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Use your plants as a guide. If they continue to grow well, and particularly if they show healthy dark green foliage, it isn't a problem. If the foliage starts to lighten, and they start showing mild cholorosis due to iron or magnesium deficiency, you might want to consider a soil acidifier.
 

cmeg1

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I would just get a digital ph meter and some up&down.
Now using organics you want a slightly higher ph.But that is probably for yard dirt.
Hydro is essentially our bonsai media of volcanic substrates and ph 5.5-6.5 or else ……nothing is available in ionic form outside this range.
Also microbes help immensly to break down organic phosphate sources.
Easy peasy……your bonsai will love an proper ph within this range……more iron and better photosynthesis for sure.

 
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Digital meter

So this is a rabbit hole that I went down recently after ready the chapter in Bonsai Heresy on water quality. I got myself a meter and tested my municipal water. Like @cheap_walmart_art I found my PH to be around 7.5-8.0. I wanted it to be about 6.5. A PH difference of 1.0 is a 10x difference, so that is a fairly big step. I already had muriatic acid on hand for my pool, and discovered that a medicine dropper full of acid was perfect to make the adjustment I needed.

I spent about two months hand watering with cans, adjusting every single 2gal can with two droppers of muriatic acid. Everything greened up nicely. But each daily watering was taking about 20gal total, and I was getting really tired of it, so I have quit for now. Next year, however, after I have moved, I plan to put together some sort of system to premix acid and fertilizer into my water. Maybe a fancy injection system, or maybe just a big tank with a spigot. We'll see.
 

Canaima

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I had the same issue. My water comes out of the faucet at around 7.5-8.5 pH. My collection is small and I was hand watering, lowering the pH to around 6 in a water can using phosphoric acid and measuring with a digital meter.

Finally I decided (I had the space in my house) to collect rain water. I bought two 55-gallon plastic drums on eBay at $10 each with local pickup and diverted a gutter into them. The rainwater measures at 7 pH. I do lower a bit more to 6 using phosphoric acid and water with that using a small pump and hose. In the event that it doesn't rain, I fill up the tanks with faucet water, correct the pH, and use that for watering. The system is working perfectly. Also, it is known that the phosphorus in the acid stimulates root growth (like the P in NPK fertilizers).

What is the impact of high pH on bonsai? Hard to tell until the tree shows signs of damage. Recently I attended a webinar by John Kirby, a bonsai professional, and I asked about this topic; John indicated that he had an acid dosing system in place to go down to 5.8 pH (his sweet spot, according to him). To him this is worth it.
 

cmeg1

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So this is a rabbit hole that I went down recently after ready the chapter in Bonsai Heresy on water quality. I got myself a meter and tested my municipal water. Like @cheap_walmart_art I found my PH to be around 7.5-8.0. I wanted it to be about 6.5. A PH difference of 1.0 is a 10x difference, so that is a fairly big step. I already had muriatic acid on hand for my pool, and discovered that a medicine dropper full of acid was perfect to make the adjustment I needed.

I spent about two months hand watering with cans, adjusting every single 2gal can with two droppers of muriatic acid. Everything greened up nicely. But each daily watering was taking about 20gal total, and I was getting really tired of it, so I have quit for now. Next year, however, after I have moved, I plan to put together some sort of system to premix acid and fertilizer into my water. Maybe a fancy injection system, or maybe just a big tank with a spigot. We'll see.
Yes An i juection sustem would be fantastic and very well worth……..you liked them green leaves though huh?😄
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Rain water fixes things up nicely too.
I made the choice to stop spending time on pH. If you're not on an eb & flow / full hydro system, than it's so much extra work that to me the benefits don't outweigh the effort.

Plants can secrete acids and bases to correct for a bad pH value. They can correct up to 2 pH points all by themselves. In eb & flow and hydro systems, this is countered/diluted by the amount of water and thus corrections are needed in the water itself.
In regular bonsai pots, the plants can do their magic between waterings. Microbial life also tends to down the pH.
When I was still working in microbiological field, we used around 20kg of NaOH a day just to keep the bacteria from lowering the pH enough to kill themselves. Most fungal secretions have a low pH too.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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First, if your municipal water, from the tap in the house comes out at a pH less than 7.8 STOP DRINKING IT, CALL THE POLICE, or the EPA, or the STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, your municipality is trying to give you LEAD POISONING. All municipalities MUST buffer municipal water supply to a pH higher than 7.8, this is to prevent lead from leaching out of the pipes, especially old municipal systems have lead supply lines. Lead was not outlawed from municipal systems until somewhere in the middle 1970's or 1980's, so if municipality was built before 1990, there is a pretty high probability that somewhere in the system there are lead supply lines. Lead also occurs as a contaminant in copper supply lines, in older copper solder formula and lead is a component of the alloy brass. Lead can leach from brass fittings. So even systems free of lead pipes can have lead issues, so buffering of water supplies is really mandatory.

Municipalities buffer the water to pH above 7.8 for your safety. The process is not free, so most municipalities use as little buffer as they can get away with. So generally the amount of buffer in your water supply is not very much.

Second. @Bonsai Nut is absolutely right. If the color of your leaves is a nice dark green to medium green you simply do not need to do anything. Even a healthy light green is okay. No need to risk screwing things up by trying to fix something that "ain't broken".

Fact: Plants exude (secrete) organic acids from their root tips which buffer the soil water film around their root tips into the ideal pH range for absorbing nutrients. This is an active process. Yes, the plants will "fix" pH problems all by themselves without us humans having to do anything. I know the orchid literature better than "tree" literature. An endocrinologist from University of Michigan in the 1980's travelled to Sumatra. There he found Paph primulinum growing on bare limestone rock. Using a portable, research grade micro pH probe, he measured the pH of the water film on the rock and on the root tips of the Paphiopedilum. The water film on the limestone rock was pH 8.1 to 8.3. Fairly alkaline. The pH of the water film of the root tips IN CONTACT with the bare limestone was 5.5 to 5.6. Later lab studies proved that orchid root tips actively excrete buffers to adjust the water film surrounding the root tips, even if the environment is as alkaline as being in contact with bare limestone.

The REASON plants exude these buffers is to optimize the uptake of nutrients like calcium, magnesium, manganese, iron, copper, and the rest of the list of micronutrients. Nitrogen is absorbed most easily by plants as an amino acid, here fish emulsion is a good source. Then next easiest is as ammonia. The issue with humans adding ammonia is there is a fine line between a good source of nitrogen, and toxic. High ammonia is toxic to roots. The absorption of nitrate requires metabolic energy from the plant, so is the least desirable way to get nitrogen into plants, but it does work, good enough for back yard growing.

Studies elsewhere confirmed that the majority of tree, shrubs, plants in general to some degree will actively buffer the water film around their root tips to the ideal pH range. As long as your water is not so alkaline as to overwhelm the plant's capacity to buffer the soil there is nothing to worry about. Plants that come from alkaline soils have a particularly high capacity to modify their root environment. Some of these are some pines, some junipers, ginkgo, and quite a few others. Plant that are "acidophiles", plants that must have acidic soil conditions put less metabolic energy into buffering their root tip pH. Azalea, blueberries and carnivorous plants come to mind as plants which have poor ability to buffer their environment. Each species has their own level of buffering capacity. But in general, if your leaves have a good color, pH is not a problem.

The take away is, if your plants are a healthy green, there is no need to mess around with buffering your water pH.

Some of us like to "tinker" it is a human phenomena, some can not resist trying to optimize conditions. I applaud @cmeg1 for his detailed optimization of growing conditions for his seedlings. His results are phenomenal. For those new to bonsai, and for those whose brains hurt when taking the deep dive into water chemistry, there is such a thing as "good enough". If your leaves are a normal green, your water & fertilizer combination is "good enough". Relax and enjoy your trees.

Often, one can tweak their fertilizer regime and that will compensate for the pH issue. As the whole purpose of fiddling with water pH is to maximize nutrient uptake. Here an "acid plant food" like Mira-Acid, or the "Blueberry Special" fertilizer I sell will go a long way toward compensating for alkaline water issues. A low dose, 1/4 teaspoon per gallon (0.3 militer per liter) with every watering of an acid plant food will be enough for those whose water is less than 300 mg per liter total dissolved calcium as calcium carbonate. If you have hard water, above 300 mg per liter as calcium carbonate, you might have to use up to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of an acid fertilizer (0.6mililiters per liter)

Another solution, if you have hard water, high calcium, you can top dress your potting media with elemental sulfur. This is a common practice for blueberries. I routinely top dress blueberries in gallon containers with sulfur at about 1 tablespoon per one gallon pot. (15 ml of powder). Elemental sulfur is available from full line garden centers that cater to the home organic vegetable growers. Sulfur comes in 2 different grades for garden use. A powder that is slightly granular for adjusting soil pH. This takes a full year to dissolve, is the one that is recommended for this use. The other is the very fine powdered sulfur, used as a slurry in water to spray as a fungicide. This one dissolves faster, will have to be applied two to 3 times a year. If you use the sulfur, you do not need the acid fertilizer.

According to USDA guidelines published for the nursery industry, "Generally, water with 600 mg/liter or less of Calcium carbonate is considered "adequate" for landscape nursery use without the need to condition the water". Which again goes to support @Bonsai Nut 's statement, "If your leaves are a healthy green, you do not need to adjust your pH".

But then again, some of us like to tinker, whether the tinkering is needed or not. In which case read threads started by @cmeg1
 
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Michael P

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Excellent posts from Leo, as always.

Not only do plant roots alter pH and other soil chemistry, all the soil microorganisms do so as well. This is especially true of mycorrhizal fungi. Bacteria, fungi, and plant roots cooperate to create an optimal environment for all. Not to start a "soil war", but this is why I incorporate at least some compost in my bonsai mix. It innoculates the pot soil environment with the beneficial microbial partners of the tree.
 

cmeg1

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Excellent posts from Leo, as always.

Not only do plant roots alter pH and other soil chemistry, all the soil microorganisms do so as well. This is especially true of mycorrhizal fungi. Bacteria, fungi, and plant roots cooperate to create an optimal environment for all. Not to start a "soil war", but this is why I incorporate at least some compost in my bonsai mix. It innoculates the pot soil environment with the beneficial microbial partners of the tree.
Yup.Microbes actually can make a ailable npk in amino acid form? I believe and give photosynthetic energy a rest for more brix
 
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@ Leo - hilariously enough I found a very similar comment you made about this same topic in another thread right after I posted this one. Thanks for the great information - sorry to make you type it twice!
 

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@Leo in N E Illinois really helped me understand my water and watering. He helped me read the water quality report and commented on the different levels. Still enormously grateful for that. ABQ has a ph of 8-8.7. And it’s total alkalinity, while not great isn’t awful. My trees always start the year really well, at least most do. Some just never look happy. But, by the end of each year, even my hardiest trees just look stressed. Leaves are always lighter, with brown outlines. I rarely get fall color, if at all. My thought was always the buffering capacity Leo referenced. By the end of the season, my trees could only buffer so much before taking a hit. I switched this year to entirely hand watering my trees and treating each 5gal bucket with a 1/4 tsp of food grade citric acid per bucket. Which gets my ph to 6.0-6.2 consistently. I also fertilize with fish poop every 3-4 days and use an acidic every week to every other week. It takes me 2, sometimes 3 buckets to get everything. I may just be projecting, but typically my trees are stressed this time of year after peak heat. But this year, mostly everything looks great, even a few trident maple which I’ve never had success with here in NM, never mind palmatum. I’ve also been far more preventative with my insecticide and fungicide application. Hoping to get some nice fall color out of all of my elms and other deciduous this year. Again, I’m no expert by any stretch but this is what I’ve switched to for my watering.

@luvinthemountains 20 buckets to water everything?!?! How many trees do you have?!?!
 
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@luvinthemountains 20 buckets to water everything?!?! How many trees do you have?!?!

😅

You made me have to look back at my post to see what I said, because more often than I care to admit, I end up mixing up my words. But no, not 20 buckets; 20 gallons! I have two Gardenworks plastic watering cans, 2.5 gallons each, so each trip to the tap I am carrying 40+ pounds. With at least four fill-ups I was moving 160+ pounds of water in a single watering. When it got really hot I was watering twice in a day, so double that. I actually started to get some mid-back pain from all the stooping and lifting.

@Leo in N E Illinois has some interesting data there. I need to check my CaCO3. Occasionally, I water in some ferrous sulfate but the effect might be too short-lived to matter.
 

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Rain water fixes things up nicely too.
I made the choice to stop spending time on pH.
Aw, rain. How I miss thee (3.5” last year, 12” below average).


All municipalities MUST buffer municipal water supply to a pH higher than 7.8, this is to prevent lead from leaching out of the pipes, especially old municipal systems have lead supply lines.
I don’t disagree with your point on lead. But I wonder how the patchwork of legislation and rule-making covers this across the country. Our city distribution average pH is 7.3 with a range of 7.0 - 7.8. The state maintains a database of lead tests at schools and none in our area have exceeded levels (although that doesn’t tell me if we have lead from the street to our house). The only rules I know of for pH is 6.5-8.5 pH as an EPA Secondary MCL (max containment level) for water quality. Sorry for straying further off-topic but I find that interesting.
 

hemmy

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you can top dress your potting media with elemental sulfur. This is a common practice for blueberries. I routinely top dress blueberries in gallon containers with sulfur at about 1 tablespoon per one gallon pot. (15 ml of powder). Elemental sulfur is available from full line garden centers that cater to the home organic vegetable growers. Sulfur comes in 2 different grades for garden use. A powder that is slightly granular for adjusting soil pH. This takes a full year to dissolve, is the one that is recommended for this use.
Can we dig into this further? I have read a few criticisms on sulfur use in the nursery container industry as ineffective. The basis appears to be the short life cycle time of the plant in a container as it is moved to the consumer. The short time being insufficient for bacterial breakdown of the sulfur. The obvious rebuttal is the time between repotting most of our bonsai trees. But I wonder about the effectiveness in starter material and pre-bonsai that might get repotted every year.

You also mention it takes a year to dissolve. What is the biggest limiter in breakdown? Lack of bacteria, low bacteria populations, temperature, high alkalinity irrigation water, etc.? A crop nutrition site mentions low temps and excessive moisture as an issue. I assume that the low temp must be a limiter on bacteria activity and the excessive moisture lowering air-filled porosity and free oxygen? We shouldn’t have that problem in most our container substrates.

A quick internet search shows Thiobacillus bacteria as prolific oxidizers of sulfur to sulfate. I found a product called Sul-Mobil by Avartak that contains this bacteria.

I wonder if bacterial inoculation could jumpstart this process for newly repotted trees or those repotted often?

This may be a solution for those of us with high alkalinity water and no rainfall, who haven’t yet committed to an acid injection system for irrigation water.
 

Bonsai Nut

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This may be a solution for those of us with high alkalinity water and no rainfall, who haven’t yet committed to an acid injection system for irrigation water.

Use this. I had good experience with it, and it is what is used by a lot of the citrus growers in SoCal. You can pick it up at a Ewing store, or a pro store like Orange County Farm Supply.

Super Iron 9-9-9
 

hemmy

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Use this. I had good experience with it, and it is what is used by a lot of the citrus growers in SoCal. You can pick it up at a Ewing store, or a pro store like Orange County Farm Supply.

Super Iron 9-9-9
I’ve used similar products with the sulfur prills. But I’ve still had to acidify water for azaleas, Japanese Maples, and elms. I had a short lived experiment with the sulfur dust, but didn’t have a good meter to test the leachate from the containers.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Aw, rain. How I miss thee (3.5” last year, 12” below average).



I don’t disagree with your point on lead. But I wonder how the patchwork of legislation and rule-making covers this across the country. Our city distribution average pH is 7.3 with a range of 7.0 - 7.8. The state maintains a database of lead tests at schools and none in our area have exceeded levels (although that doesn’t tell me if we have lead from the street to our house). The only rules I know of for pH is 6.5-8.5 pH as an EPA Secondary MCL (max containment level) for water quality. Sorry for straying further off-topic but I find that interesting.
 
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